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	javispedro	2011-09-07 , 07:48
	Posts: 2,355 \| Thanked: 5,249 times \| Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona	#251

Originally Posted by woody14619

Yes... I read news articles and forums on occasion. People there tend to post things, like how LG is in the mix too. There have been several articles in the past year about other products in the pipeline from LG and Intel, targeting Atom and Snapdragon.

My point is that you _knew_ about x86 being target despite your insistence to the contrary ("I didn't even know MeeGo had an x86 target until you brought it up")

Originally Posted by woody14619

And you call me stupid? Snapdragon is Qualcomm, not ARM. It's partially based on some of the old ARM core architecture, and has a compatibility mode that lets it run some ARM binaries, but it's not at all ARM.

Ha ha ha ha. That's the second most funniest thing I've heard in this week. This thread was worth it after all. It made me laugh!

Are you realizing you just said the equivalent of "AMD is not a x86 processor"? The design might not be based in the Cortex RTL (but despite their PR they're a licensee). That does not make it a "non ARM" processors. Its main ISA is ARM. There's no other native ISA (if there's, where's it documented? I I would learn something!).

And I'm not going to call _you_ stupid. That would get me banned. But some of your arguments surely are.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Atom. Since it's core is pulled mainly from Moblin, which was specifically for Atom. Remember the other partner in this? Intel? They seem to think that's why they're in this

ARM wasn't a target for Moblin. The "big task" for Nokia was doing work to port Moblin to ARM, and more specifically to add their sub architecture and supplemental drivers.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I know quite a bit about MeeGo, and it's origins. Someone who doesn't know the difference between a Cortex and a Snapdragon shouldn't be throwing stones when they're not well versed themselves...

Difference between Cortex and Snapdragon... Bah, please even google the correct names to compare before even trying to mention that to me (it's Scorpion -- or, if you want to compare Snapdragon, you should compare it to the OMAP. Which might be actually a valid argument, come to think of it...).

Plus, you seem to conveniently forget about MeeGo being based on the kernel.org GNU/Linux kernel (which, oh, supports ARM). Nokia didn't have to "fix MeeGo". They had to fix the upstream Kernel (they had been used the omap branch). And they were upstreaming already _before_ MeeGo.

And to say Nokia doesn't contribute to Meego other than the Qt GUI... look at sensord, ofono, even the kernel...

Originally Posted by woody14619

Pipeline = future, not past. With the exception of the N9, all those devices are finished production. I talking about what's in the pipeline, meaning what's coming in the future. Again, who's ignorant?

Meego does not support either the N950 (but will in a few weeks) or the N9. So we are not talking about the past.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Most don't see them as computers in the proper sense. Most systems using ARM chips are NOT computers in a proper sense. Is an oven timer a computer? How about a shake dispenser at McDonalds, is that a computer? How about a car alarm? They all use ARM processors, but most people wouldn't consider them a computer.

You are an engineer. You should be able to tell they are computers.

Originally Posted by woody14619

And yes, on this forum people may know that ARM is a type of CPU, and that it happens to be the CPU in our N900s. But most people, even those here, don't know how wide-spread the family is, or how used they are in common electronics. And those that do know that a CPU is not a "computer" in common language.

So you ask around on this forum: is the N900 not a computer? What answer will you get?

Originally Posted by woody14619

You left out "recently produced and readily available". Sorry, MeeGo porting to the FreeRunner is great and all, but there were only about 2,000 of those made. They're not available for sale any more. They're not easy to come by. Again... READ what I'm writing.

And tell me... how is a Beagleboard at all like an N9? Did you not read where I said Nokia chose the N900 because it was the closest match with it's upcoming products? Perhaps it was confusion over the term pipeline still.

The BeagleBoard is virtually the same hardware from the N900, and with recent revisions it is virtually the same hardware from the N9. Fremantle runs as is on it. Please Google around.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Really? You're going to use that as an example? Who gives a flying crap about video call support on Google? LOTS of devices don't support video call. In fact, there are very few that do!

What's more, most people don't want or use video calls. They're cumbersome. Most people don't even CALL these days. It's all texting unless you're trying to call a business or and older person who hasn't gotten the gist of texting yet. I have tons of friends with iPhones, not one has made a "Facetime" call since about 2 weeks after it was rolled out, with the exception of one deaf friend who uses it to call his mother every couple weeks.

Well, I do use Google Talk video calls. What I am now, a bastard? Either way, next thing you hear is that the next Wi-Fi security protocol is not supported (tell that to me). Or that this newfangled WhatsUp can't be supported because it is missing a one-liner patch. Or that the new HTML5 standard/codec XXX doesn't work. You can find examples _everywhere_ you look of software obsolescence. I don't know why I have to listi them to you!

Originally Posted by woody14619

Considering the N900 was barely even sold in the US (where I'm from), pretty much nobody here using one is the "average user". We're talking about a niche device here.

You'll note, I didn't say "average user". I said "average N900 user". I'm talking about the market the device was targeted toward. The N900 (with rare exception) was not marketed to the average consumer. It was targeted at a group of tech-savy people that wanted an open-source device with few limitations. Something they could build their own apps for, and tweak to their hearts desire, without needing to side-load, or root, or hack to get basic functionality.

It was targeted to "young hipsters". Go check its public presentation.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Nokia didn't contribute to MeeGoCE as an effort to release stuff for their old device. If you think that then you're really nieve. Don't fool yourself. This wasn't a benevolent act on the part of Nokia. It was a calculated move, made to further their own goals, which have since shifted drastically due to a management change that nobody saw coming.

Nokia did this because they needed a test platform before their next launch. They probably also thought that just maybe, with enough luck, they could snag some of the developers into the new camp and get some good free labor.

Third funniest thing of the day. Nokia doesn't make prototypes, eh? For your information, THEY MADE prototypes. They were quite easy to see in the Meego conference... and not the latest.

Originally Posted by woody14619

The N900 has a very different form factor from the N800 series, and most importantly has GSM capabilities. That drastically changes the user base (and it's size), especially in a market where "smart phones" are the big thing. I wouldn't want an N8x0. I have plenty of Intel based tablets at home, and have seen lots of other tablets, pre and post iPad. But I pre-ordered an N900... twice. What you're calling the "virtually same device" has no appeal to me. The fact that you consider them equal makes me rethink what you present as fact...

More unfounded n900centrism... The N8x0 is not a tablet in your current sense (it's not exactly iPad formfactor). Go check it. Plus it's all "mobile computing".

Some Meego stuff from the FAQ I don't even know why you're quoting me (because it answers your errors instead of mines).

And yes, this is a textbook definition of flamewar.

Last edited by javispedro; 2011-09-07 at 11:05.

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abill_uk	2011-09-07 , 08:36
Banned \| Posts: 3,412 \| Thanked: 1,043 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#252

Originally Posted by javispedro

My point is that you _knew_ about x86 being target despite your insistence to the contrary ("I didn't even know MeeGo had an x86 target until you brought it up")
Ha ha ha ha. That's the second most funniest thing I've heard in this week. This thread was worth it after all. It made me laugh!
Are you realizing you just said the equivalent of "AMD is not a x86 processor"? The design might not be based in the Cortex RTL (but despite their PR they're a licensee). That does not make it a "non ARM" processors. Its main ISA is ARM. There's no other native ISA (where's it documented?).
And I'm not going to call _you_ stupid. That would get me banned. But some of your arguments surely are.
I know quite a bit about MeeGo, and it's origins. Someone who doesn't know the difference between a Cortex and a Snapdragon shouldn't be throwing stones when they're not well versed themselves...

Difference between Cortex and Snapdragon... Bah, please even google the correct names to compare before even trying to mention that to me.
Plus, you seem to conveniently forget about MeeGo being based on the kernel.org GNU/Linux kernel (which, oh, supports ARM). Nokia didn't have to "fix MeeGo". They had to fix the upstream Kernel (they had been used the omap branch). And they were upstreaming already _before_ MeeGo.
And to say Nokia doesn't contribute to Meego other than the Qt GUI... look at sensord, ofono, even the kernel...
Meego does not support either the N950 (but will in a few weeks) or the N9. So we are not talking about the past.
You are an engineer. You should be able to tell they are computers.
So you ask around on this forum: is the N900 not a computer?
The BeagleBoard is virtually the same hardware from the N900, and with recent revisions it is virtually the same hardware from the N9. Fremantle runs as is on it. Please Google around.
*palm-face* Did you read what I wrote? Did you even bother to read it at all? Did you NOT read the part where I said, yes, Nokia paid for it, and made the obvious choice to port it to the N900 because it was the closest thing to their future pipeline?
Well, I do use Google Talk video calls. What I am now, a bastard? Either way, next thing you hear is that the next Wi-Fi security protocol is not supported (tell that to me). Or that this newfangled WhatsUp can't be supported because it is missing a one-liner patch. Or that the new HTML5 standard/codec XXX doesn't work. You can find examples _everywhere_ you look of software obsolescence. I don't know why I'm listing them to you!
It was targeted to "young hipsters". Go check its presentation.
Third funniest thing of the day. Nokia doesn't make prototypes, eh? For your information, THEY MADE prototypes.
More unfounded n900centrism... The N8x0 is not a tablet in your current sense (it's not an iPad formfactor). Go check it.
Some Meego stuff from the FAQ I don't even know why you're quoting me (because it answers your errors instead of mines).
Plus yes, this is a textboot definition of Flamewar. Go check it.[/QUOTE]

Honestly mate i have never read so much CRAP !!! talk about put words into peoples mouths !.

YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A BULLY

Your just proving my previous post to be correct in every sense, why dont you stop trying to be a bighead and put some effort into the problems of meego.

All your doing is making argument and that is something NO development needs, the way your comng across is actually a bully and enciting your own argumentative behaviour is not going to get you any brownie points i can tell you.

Are you the new kind of wisdom we have in this world? because really nobody needs such behaviour within development.

Your post is nothing but a war of words and it actually sickens me to read your bullish tantrums.

PS I have shortened his post down so it does not fill a whole page.

Last edited by abill_uk; 2011-09-07 at 08:52.

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	ysss	2011-09-07 , 08:52
	Posts: 4,384 \| Thanked: 5,524 times \| Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou	#253

For a second I thought someone has stepped up his game and put in a bit of brain into his post (though the post read eerily familiar).... but as I scrolled down, I realize it was just a misuse of the quoting system... *sigh*

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timoph	2011-09-07 , 09:44
Posts: 415 \| Thanked: 732 times \| Joined on Jan 2009 @ Finland	#254

Originally Posted by abill_uk

blah blah blah

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	woody14619	2011-09-08 , 03:23
	Posts: 1,455 \| Thanked: 3,309 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY	#255

Originally Posted by javispedro

My point is that you _knew_ about x86 being target despite your insistence to the contrary ("I didn't even know MeeGo had an x86 target until you brought it up")

x86 is not Atom. AMD is not x86. An apple is not an orange...

And no, I didn't know about x86 being a target. I probably should have assumed MeeGo would have one (for debug use), but I'm pretty sure it's not actually a valid target for a full install, any more that it was for Maemo.

Funny how "your point" keeps changing. First your point was that MeeGo was for ARM (which I showed not to be true due to it's roots in Moblin). Then it was that "I said" MeeGo was targeted to x86, until I proved I said no such thing. Now it's that I "knew" about the target...

I find when people keep changing their "point", it's often because they don't have one.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Are you realizing you just said the equivalent of "AMD is not a x86 processor"?

It's not. It has a compatibility mode that allows it to emulate that code set rather well, but it's not at all x86. Even the Pentium line from Intel isn't x86 these days, as they've moved from that set to a RISC set. They still have an emulation mode, but it's not x86, and hasn't been for some time.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Plus, you seem to conveniently forget about MeeGo being based on the kernel.org GNU/Linux kernel (which, oh, supports ARM). Nokia didn't have to "fix MeeGo". They had to fix the upstream Kernel (they had been used the omap branch). And they were upstreaming already _before_ MeeGo.

Yes. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Nokia had to go fix things upstream, to make Moblin (changing into MeeGo) ready for their slate of upcoming devices. That's exactly what I said. You call that "fixing the upstream kernel", I called it "folding in code to make MeeGo work". Thanks for making my point for me.

Btw: Just because a kernel supports compiling to a target, doesn't mean everything in it magically works on that target. Try compiling one of the open ATI drivers for Sparc some time and tell me how that goes.

Originally Posted by javispedro

And to say Nokia doesn't contribute to Meego other than the Qt GUI... look at sensord, ofono, even the kernel...

Who said that? Not me! That was a quote from the MeeGo FAQ! Don't like it? Call MeeGo and tell them to fix their website.

Btw: ofono wasn't contributed by Nokia. ofono was a joint project by Intel and Nokia. But then I wouldn't expect you to know that... despite the fact that I've mentioned it twice already.

Originally Posted by javispedro

You are an engineer. You should be able to tell they are computers.

And you should be able to tell the difference between a CPU and a computer.

A computer, in common lingo, isn't any random device that happens to have a CPU. Most people wouldn't consider a car alarm or a garage door opener a computer. Yes, it has a micro controller in it. But that doesn't make it a computer. I have a solar powered calculator I bought at the dollar store... it has a micro in it, buried under a wax dot. Would you call that a computer? You'd be laughed at if you did.

This is all beside the point that there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel. And, the fact that you lied about me saying ARM processors are scarce, when I in fact said no such thing.

But then if you can't tell the difference between a computer and an over timer, why should I be surprised that you don't have the common sense to not lie, or to show humility at all when called on it, multiple times.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Meego does not support either the N950 (but will in a few weeks) or the N9. So we are not talking about the past.

Yes.. you are... How many new N950 is Nokia going to produce? 0 How many new N900 will Nokia be making? 0 And yes, there will be more N9s, but again, I said "excluding N9, there are no other ARM based processors in the pipeline". So... Again, besides the N9, what other systems have been announced that are going to run MeeGo that are ARM based? There's one platform by LG, a couple by Intel, and a rumor of one by Samsung, and none of them are ARM.

I'm talking about what's in the pipeline (the future) hardware wise. Planned, but as yet unreleased hardware that has been announced, where the company creating it has said they plan on running MeeGo on it.

I'm not talking about what random old hardware MeeGo may or may not choose to try to get itself running on. That's not a pipeline, that's porting (or back porting) at best. Getting MeeGo to run on the Neo1973 doesn't mean it's in the pipeline. It means someone decided to backport something for old hardware they had laying around.

Originally Posted by javispedro

The BeagleBoard is virtually the same hardware from the N900

Yes, as is the iPhone, as is the FreeRunner, as are several other things. What's your point? The BeagleBoard is a hobby project kit. Nobody has turned it into a viable handset, or much else outside of the hobby world.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Either way, next thing you hear is that the next Wi-Fi security protocol is not supported (tell that to me).

By which point, if it can't be emulated in software, good odds it will be so old that there's not much you'll be able to do with it anyway. Assuming it's still running by then.

I have an ancient 486 based tablet running Win98 at home. It only supports PCMCIA-16, and pre-dates USB. I had a wifi card for it but it only supported open and WEP. I can still use it on an open network, or setup a small sub-netted WEP network and SSH over it. I can still use it for lots of tasks, well over a decade after it was made. It's not my primary device any more, but then I doubt by 2019 my N900 will still be my primary device.

And tell me... if the blob that sits in Maemo doesn't support WPA5, do you really think the blob in MeeGo is going to? Unless that new standard comes out in the next 6 months, and the MeeGo CE folks quickly add support for it before Nokia pulls funding, it won't matter if I'm running Maemo, MeeGo, Android or anything else. A blob is a blob is a blob. And if AT&T buys up TMobil and re-purposes the 3G frequencies, no software in the world is going to get that back. MeeGo can't change the hardware to change the band it tunes to for 3G.

Originally Posted by javispedro

It was targeted to "young hipsters". Go check its public presentation.

I'd love to. Link? I can tell you right now, Nokia didn't target anyone in the US. There was $0 spent on advertising the N900 for the US. Not a single commercial aired for it here. So please, do tell me where this targeting advertisement is...

I know in London they had a few displays. And there was a commercial made, though I'm not sure it ever made it to anything but YouTube. The N900 was quite solidly targeted at the geek crowd.

Even if it was targeted at "young hipsters", that still doesn't change the point. The "hipsters" it was targeted at would be the ones looking for a more opensource platform that they could tweak to their liking. It was not targeted at the generic Nokia phone purchaser, which (if you'll read what I wrote) is what I said. So my point still stands. This wasn't a common device for the "average user". When I said "average N900 user", I meant what I said. And the "average N900 user" is still not going to go for MeeGo unless it's stable, which currently it is not.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Third funniest thing of the day. Nokia doesn't make prototypes, eh? For your information, THEY MADE prototypes. They were quite easy to see in the Meego conference... and not the latest.

What the hell are you talking about? Prototypes of what? Who's talking about prototypes? You've really gone off into the wild on this.

I was (rather clearly) talking about Nokia's motivation to backport MeeGo to the N900. The motivation was two fold: One was to have test platform that specifically was NOT a prototype, something that they knew was solid and worked, and could boot into something besides MeeGo, to reset hardware, or what not. The other was to set it up so that people outside Nokia could work on the project, giving Nokia free labor.

I said absolutely nothing about prototypes. Prototypes are rather useless when trying to debug software, since it's harder to tell sometimes if it's the software that's hosed or the hardware. They're also useless when you're trying to get others to participate in development, unless you release said prototypes, which opens you up to all kinds of other issues. Better to port it to a platform that already exists, and is in the hands of your target audience, ready for use.

And before you say it, because I know you're going to, yes the N950 release was a prototype release. Tell me, how much good did releasing those hundred or so devices do, vs the backport to the N900. Despite MeeGo CE being near useless, I'm betting there are more community developers testing on the N900 then there are on N950s, even now when nearly every N950 produced has been handed out.

Originally Posted by javispedro

More unfounded n900centrism... The N8x0 is not a tablet in your current sense (it's not exactly iPad formfactor). Go check it. Plus it's all "mobile computing".

Wait... so an oven timer is a computer, but the N810 Internet Tablet from Nokia isn't a tablet?

FUD!

Originally Posted by javispedro

Some Meego stuff from the FAQ I don't even know why you're quoting me (because it answers your errors instead of mines).
.

You said MeeGo always had ARM support. I quoted two parts of it's FAQ where MeeGo itself said that it was based on the Moblin core, which did not have support for ARM. I also noted that the question of if MeeGo would support ARM was so prevalent that it was addressed specifically in the FAQ. Meaning that it was so asked about, because it wasn't clear at first if MeeGo was going to support ARM (deriving from Moblin), that the project leads specifically put into the FAQ that they did plan on supporting ARM. Why, if it was "always supported" would they put that in the FAQ otherwise?

Funny how you claim to know so much about things, but then don't know the basics of where MeeGo spawned from.

Also, you argued with me above, saying:

Originally Posted by javispedro

And to say Nokia doesn't contribute to Meego other than the Qt GUI... look at sensord, ofono, even the kernel...

Again, that's not something I said. What you're arguing with is a quote taken directly from the MeeGo FAQ.

So, while this has been fun, I'm pretty much done with this. I've proven my points, and said my part. You on the other hand have devolved to using 5-point font for such witty banter as "Ha Ha Ha", laughing at your own ignorance for not knowing that just because a device may be based on a core from another system doesn't mean it's the same thing. (Followed by the hysterical claim that AMD is x86...)

So, enjoy the little cave of almost-reality you live in. I'm off to continue work in the real world, where people sometimes actually listen to each other, and apply logic to their lives every now an then.

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	woody14619	2011-09-08 , 03:53
	Posts: 1,455 \| Thanked: 3,309 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY	#256

Originally Posted by abill_uk

These developers really ARE either plain ignorant or plain stupid by playing games with words when at the end of the day NOTHING has moved forward, NOTHING has been agreed of the points you have made as they repeatably ignore from your posts.

I'm pretty sure most of the worst of the bunch aren't even MeeGo developers. Javispedro, for example, said he's not using MeeGo and still runs Maemo on his N900. He's never claimed to work on MeeGo that I've seen, and is clearly unfamiliar with it's origins. I'm not sure he's a developer at all, given the inability to follow logic, and his clearly flawed understanding of system architecture. Plus, frankly, most developers I know tend to not lie randomly, and veer off topic with such zeal.

But I'm sad to say, to some degree you're right on this topic. I've wasted more time than I ever wanted to here. Most recently because of one person accusing me (with a lie) of saying something I never said. Remember, this recent bit all stated with Javispedro saying I called MeeGo a "waste of time", months after the conversation was pretty much over. Even he later admitted that what I said was said in such a conditional way that he couldn't argue his point.

Btw: Thanks for the explanation on why you're not explaining things. Ironically, in explaining that, you did explain something, and exactly as I said, I got insight into why you behave the way you do at times. It showed, I think for the first time, that you at least have a reason (logical or not) for not participating in the fashion many have asked you to.

I'm still confused as to why you would participate at all though, given your reasoning on not explaining your reasons. I mean, if it's not worth the effort to explain your reasoning and logic, they why is it worth the effort to post a reply that's little more that shouting and making claims without backing? In a way, isn't that lowering yourself to their level? Wouldn't it be better to not post at all? Or post in a clam manner with smaller snippets, or maybe a simple link that counters their argument. (Or at the very least some witty banter or cliche saying that could fit the tone?)

Just food for thought.

So long, and thanks for all the flames!

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	javispedro	2011-09-08 , 04:53
	Posts: 2,355 \| Thanked: 5,249 times \| Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona	#257

Originally Posted by woody14619

Funny how "your point" keeps changing. First your point was that MeeGo was for ARM (which I showed not to be true due to it's roots in Moblin). Then it was that "I said" MeeGo was targeted to x86, until I proved I said no such thing. Now it's that I "knew" about the target...

I find when people keep changing their "point", it's often because they don't have one.

That's funny, cause I find you're doing the same. My main point has been clear since day one. I've used every opportunity I could to put it in clear, bold letters. But every time I've done so you've found a new excuse for why it doesn't matter: firstly, that the number of closed components was similar to Maemo (proven false), then, that Meego's goals were not to make an usable OS (proven false), then, that Meego's main target was not ARM (proven false).... what will come now?

Originally Posted by woody14619

It's not. It has a compatibility mode that allows it to emulate that code set rather well, but it's not at all x86. Even the Pentium line from Intel isn't x86 these days, as they've moved from that set to a RISC set. They still have an emulation mode, but it's not x86, and hasn't been for some time.

In case you want to learn something, that's usually called "microcode". Doesn't mean the processor is not x86. /me sighs...

Originally Posted by woody14619

Nokia had to go fix things upstream, to make Moblin (changing into MeeGo) ready for their slate of upcoming devices. That's exactly what I said. You call that "fixing the upstream kernel", I called it "folding in code to make MeeGo work". Thanks for making my point for me.

Oh, for the sake of god. Nokia _made_ MeeGo. It's not that they had to grab the Moblin kernel and add their stuff as you would like to believe. Nokia was (very, very slowly) putting their patches back into kernel.org. MeeGo's policy is to use upstream components as much as possible. Therefore, they grabbed both Nokia's upstreaming work (which had started way before MeeGo, even in the N8x0 times, from the work of usually single person teams), and Intel's work. And TI's work. And Google's work. You know how this Open Source thing works don't you?

Originally Posted by woody14619

Btw: Just because a kernel supports compiling to a target, doesn't mean everything in it magically works on that target. Try compiling one of the open ATI drivers for Sparc some time and tell me how that goes.

I did not say it "only supported compiling".

Originally Posted by woody14619

Who said that? Not me! That was a quote from the MeeGo FAQ! Don't like it? Call MeeGo and tell them to fix their website.

You can do that too, in case you wondered.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Btw: ofono wasn't contributed by Nokia. ofono was a joint project by Intel and Nokia. But then I wouldn't expect you to know that... despite the fact that I've mentioned it twice already.

So if it is a joint project of Intel and Nokia, what part of "contributed by Nokia" is false? Or do you think Intel made all the Nokia-specific ISI backend?

Originally Posted by woody14619

And you should be able to tell the difference between a CPU and a computer.

A computer, in common lingo, isn't any random device that happens to have a CPU. Most people wouldn't consider a car alarm or a garage door opener a computer. Yes, it has a micro controller in it. But that doesn't make it a computer. I have a solar powered calculator I bought at the dollar store... it has a micro in it, buried under a wax dot. Would you call that a computer? You'd be laughed at if you did.

I work in CS. Can you tell me exactly why your solar powered calculator doesn't qualify as a computer? Or do you prefer to keep using inexact terms so that you can keep confusing me in every post you make?

Originally Posted by woody14619

This is all beside the point that there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel. And, the fact that you lied about me saying ARM processors are scarce, when I in fact said no such thing.

You said there aren't millions of ARM PCs for developers to debug their code. Despite the fact you're above admitting there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel.

Before you point it out, obviously, you're not going to debug Meego on your solar based battery calculator. But you should look around a bit more. For example, there have even been free BeagleBoards for Meego developers.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Yes.. you are... How many new N950 is Nokia going to produce? 0 How many new N900 will Nokia be making? 0 And yes, there will be more N9s, but again, I said "excluding N9, there are no other ARM based processors in the pipeline". So... Again, besides the N9, what other systems have been announced that are going to run MeeGo that are ARM based? There's one platform by LG, a couple by Intel, and a rumor of one by Samsung, and none of them are ARM.

I'm talking about what's in the pipeline (the future) hardware wise. Planned, but as yet unreleased hardware that has been announced, where the company creating it has said they plan on running MeeGo on it.

I'm not talking about what random old hardware MeeGo may or may not choose to try to get itself running on. That's not a pipeline, that's porting (or back porting) at best. Getting MeeGo to run on the Neo1973 doesn't mean it's in the pipeline. It means someone decided to backport something for old hardware they had laying around.

But WHY you assert that? Every _SINGLE_ device for where a MeegoCE project is started means more Meego development which literally means more lifetime for the MeegoCE on your n900. Why is this so hard to understand too? What do you need?

Originally Posted by woody14619

Yes, as is the iPhone, as is the FreeRunner, as are several other things. What's your point? The BeagleBoard is a hobby project kit. Nobody has turned it into a viable handset, or much else outside of the hobby world.

I thought we were talking about a platform where Meego could be debugged and developed (a role you wrongly assumed only the N900 could fill)? Why it does need to be a "viable handset outside of the hobby world"?

Originally Posted by woody14619

By which point, if it can't be emulated in software, good odds it will be so old that there's not much you'll be able to do with it anyway. Assuming it's still running by then.

Bad example. All of it already runs in software.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I have an ancient 486 based tablet running Win98 at home. It only supports PCMCIA-16, and pre-dates USB. I had a wifi card for it but it only supported open and WEP. I can still use it on an open network, or setup a small sub-netted WEP network and SSH over it. I can still use it for lots of tasks, well over a decade after it was made. It's not my primary device any more, but then I doubt by 2019 my N900 will still be my primary device.

Please note that WPA-TKIP was exactly designed to be usable ON HARDWARE THAT COULD DO WEP. It is one of the reasons it is universally considered weak. So your weak example actually proves my point. Where your driver to be open, you could have implemented a _working_ WPA-TKIP supplicant implementation for your card.

Sadly, it wasn't open. You didn't learn your lesson, seemingly.

Originally Posted by woody14619

And tell me... if the blob that sits in Maemo doesn't support WPA5, do you really think the blob in MeeGo is going to?

Again you conveniently forget that Meego has MUCH fewer blobs (my main point, remember?). Among other things, the supplicant is entirely open.
Which is why I chose this example! What do you think I am, an idiot?

Originally Posted by woody14619

Unless that new standard comes out in the next 6 months, and the MeeGo CE folks quickly add support for it before Nokia pulls funding, it won't matter if I'm running Maemo, MeeGo, Android or anything else. A blob is a blob is a blob. And if AT&T buys up TMobil and re-purposes the 3G frequencies, no software in the world is going to get that back. MeeGo can't change the hardware to change the band it tunes to for 3G.

A blob is a blob. Two hundred blob are "too much". Four blobs are manageable. My main point again, heh.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I'd love to. Link? I can tell you right now, Nokia didn't target anyone in the US. There was $0 spent on advertising the N900 for the US. Not a single commercial aired for it here. So please, do tell me where this targeting advertisement is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe0rMUoHwyI
Probably you don't remember it.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I know in London they had a few displays. And there was a commercial made, though I'm not sure it ever made it to anything but YouTube. The N900 was quite solidly targeted at the geek crowd.

Even if it was targeted at "young hipsters", that still doesn't change the point. The "hipsters" it was targeted at would be the ones looking for a more opensource platform that they could tweak to their liking.

Don't redefine my words. Young hipsters was imprecise, ok. But it does not mean opensource lovers for sure.

Originally Posted by woody14619

It was not targeted at the generic Nokia phone purchaser.

How come? It was step 5 of 5!

Originally Posted by woody14619

What the hell are you talking about? Prototypes of what? Who's talking about prototypes? You've really gone off into the wild on this.

I was (rather clearly) talking about Nokia's motivation to backport MeeGo to the N900. The motivation was two fold: One was to have test platform that specifically was NOT a prototype, something that they knew was solid and worked, and could boot into something besides MeeGo, to reset hardware, or what not.

I am sorry, wouldn't they be able to do that even better on their prototypes with debug dock stations and so on? (Which is why I introduced the topic, in case you didn't notice. That's what Nokia does...)

Originally Posted by woody14619

The other was to set it up so that people outside Nokia could work on the project, giving Nokia free labor.

That is a good point. It is after the entire reasoning behind open source, getting "free labor". They could also have chosen the Beagleboard for that. But, as I've said, Nokia was paying, I just find it natural they were to chose a hardware of their own.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I said absolutely nothing about prototypes. Prototypes are rather useless when trying to debug software, since it's harder to tell sometimes if it's the software that's hosed or the hardware.

See above.

Originally Posted by woody14619

And before you say it, because I know you're going to, yes the N950 release was a prototype release. Tell me, how much good did releasing those hundred or so devices do, vs the backport to the N900. Despite MeeGo CE being near useless, I'm betting there are more community developers testing on the N900 then there are on N950s, even now when nearly every N950 produced has been handed out.

Compare this forum and the Meego one for that. You have the answer in front of your eyes.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Wait... so an oven timer is a computer, but the N810 Internet Tablet from Nokia isn't a tablet?

If you consider the iPad a tablet, then no, I do not believe they compete in the same market segment. But that's a belief. Market data tends to prove me right, though.

Originally Posted by woody14619

You said MeeGo always had ARM support. I quoted two parts of it's FAQ where MeeGo itself said that it was based on the Moblin core, which did not have support for ARM. I also noted that the question of if MeeGo would support ARM was so prevalent that it was addressed specifically in the FAQ. Meaning that it was so asked about, because it wasn't clear at first if MeeGo was going to support ARM (deriving from Moblin), that the project leads specifically put into the FAQ that they did plan on supporting ARM. Why, if it was "always supported" would they put that in the FAQ otherwise?

Ah, reading between the lines eh? I don't do that.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Funny how you claim to know so much about things, but then don't know the basics of where MeeGo spawned from.

I seemingly know them better than you... could probably be because I've been monitoring it since day -1, and all of yours comes from reading a FAQ. You did not even know the number of closed packages in either Meego or Maemo!

Originally Posted by woody14619

So, while this has been fun, I'm pretty much done with this. I've proven my points, and said my part. You on the other hand have devolved to using 5-point font for such witty banter as "Ha Ha Ha", laughing at your own ignorance for not knowing that just because a device may be based on a core from another system doesn't mean it's the same thing. (Followed by the hysterical claim that AMD is x86...)

Oh, I've enjoyed it quite much as you can see. I will be always there if you want to continue.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I'm pretty sure most of the worst of the bunch aren't even MeeGo developers. Javispedro, for example, said he's not using MeeGo and still runs Maemo on his N900. He's never claimed to work on MeeGo that I've seen, and is clearly unfamiliar with it's origins. I'm not sure he's a developer at all, given the inability to follow logic, and his clearly flawed understanding of system architecture. Plus, frankly, most developers I know tend to not lie randomly, and veer off topic with such zeal.

Note that as you can see in this thread, this forum has driven the real developers away. Only trolls (like me) remain. But keep believing that the community you are scaring away with your weird requirements will save you. You'll see how much you last.

And remember that my main point has always been. The fact that there's a reduced number of closed packages MATTERS. I am yet to see any valid argumentation for why it does NOT. Feel free to put some other incidental argument about why Meego sucks or something else. I'll reply for the fun of it. But my point remains.

Last edited by javispedro; 2011-09-08 at 04:55.

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Originally Posted by woody14619

I'm pretty sure most of the worst of the bunch aren't even MeeGo developers. Javispedro, for example, said he's not using MeeGo and still runs Maemo on his N900. He's never claimed to work on MeeGo that I've seen, and is clearly unfamiliar with it's origins. I'm not sure he's a developer at all, given the inability to follow logic, and his clearly flawed understanding of system architecture. Plus, frankly, most developers I know tend to not lie randomly, and veer off topic with such zeal.

Then why is he posting in the first place? why does he feel he needs to argue every point you make? because you proved something he does not agree with?.
He is not a meego developer but wants to prove what exactly ? and how does his posts benefit meego?.

Originally Posted by woody14619

But I'm sad to say, to some degree you're right on this topic. I've wasted more time than I ever wanted to here. Most recently because of one person accusing me (with a lie) of saying something I never said. Remember, this recent bit all stated with Javispedro saying I called MeeGo a "waste of time", months after the conversation was pretty much over. Even he later admitted that what I said was said in such a conditional way that he couldn't argue his point.

OK now i understand why he is posting argumentative posts directed at you, but this does NOT help meego development.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Btw: Thanks for the explanation on why you're not explaining things. Ironically, in explaining that, you did explain something, and exactly as I said, I got insight into why you behave the way you do at times. It showed, I think for the first time, that you at least have a reason (logical or not) for not participating in the fashion many have asked you to.

I have read all of your posts and even though we do not agree in some part i will not argue with your views out of respect as a fellow engineer, please note that i am old school and was always taught to have the utmost respect for fellow engineers, software or hardware, and will not normally argue back.
Your posts are always put together very well with very plain and easy to understand technical detail.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I'm still confused as to why you would participate at all though, given your reasoning on not explaining your reasons. I mean, if it's not worth the effort to explain your reasoning and logic, they why is it worth the effort to post a reply that's little more that shouting and making claims without backing? In a way, isn't that lowering yourself to their level? Wouldn't it be better to not post at all? Or post in a clam manner with smaller snippets, or maybe a simple link that counters their argument. (Or at the very least some witty banter or cliche saying that could fit the tone?)

I have worked with software development for many years and know very well how to structure hardware components making software development as straight forward as possible by making the flow chart structure that every software developer needs.

After analysing the actual development of the meego adaption for the n900 it was clear to see that teamwork did not exsist and that the basic os structure was just not happening and not coming together.

This is either due to bad teamwork structure or insufficent knowledge of how to put together an os OR lack of the right kind of OS software developers !.

Stskeeps informed me on the poll thread for Maemo that i started he had been supplied from Nokia the full source to the Maemo os and that obviously includes every single driver for every single component within the n900.

I have looked at the component flowchart of the n900 and i do not understand why the meego adaption development has not followed even the basic software flowchart of os design as it seems to start wrongly with the basic telephony components and stops there, certainly NOT as the hardware flowchart would suggest.

When i am dealing with proficient software developers i can go with them but what i have seen to date is nothing but a shambles and an entity with no teamwork exsisting hence why the meego adaption is a complete shambles and going nowhere.

Now look at the members on this forum and tell me just WHO is even capable of understanding even the points i have just made, now suggest to me how i even start to say the meego development is a complete shambles and not being put together in any reasonable fashion?????..... i would be shot down in flames by most everyone because they just do NOT understand "os" software development and the kind of teamwork that is needed to establish an os, something i can say for sure has never exsisted from stskeeps which shows in the direction and result of meego todate and the very reason i have simply stated things like "stop and go back to the drawing board" basically.

I am more than aware of how to structure an os and it is NOT something that can be taken lightly as it takes time and the right kind of "OS development" team to put together.

Now i can go a lot lot further and be a hell of a lot more technical if i want too but i do not see anyone on this forum with the knowledge of even understanding basic os structure but please point me in the direction of a member of the meego development "team" and i will talk about proficient os structure !.

Please note that my comments are only directed at the meego adaption for the N900.

Last edited by abill_uk; 2011-09-08 at 12:25.

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lemmyslender	2011-09-08 , 14:49
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Originally Posted by javispedro

How come? It was step 5 of 5!

Are you really suggesting that the N900 was marketed to normal Nokia phone users / hippsters, etc because it was "step 5 of 5"? I'm hoping it was sarcasm, otherwise you're really losing it.

You've been here long enough (well before the N900) to absolutely without a doubt know that the N900 was announced by Nokia to be "step 4 of 5" per the wikipedia entry, which references the talk by Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo, Anssi Vanjoki. (2 September 2009)

The Nokia N900 was officially announced on 2 September 2009 at Nokia World 2009 in Germany. Nokia says it is step 4 of 5 in the line of Maemo devices which started in 2005 with the Nokia 770.[17]

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	javispedro	2011-09-08 , 15:05
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender

You've been here long enough (well before the N900) to absolutely without a doubt know that the N900 was announced by Nokia to be "step 4 of 5" per the wikipedia entry, which references the talk by Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo, Anssi Vanjoki. (2 September 2009)

Sshhht! Now he'll not have a reason to come back!