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bibounefr |
2011-05-30
, 11:52
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Posts: 33 |
Thanked: 2 times |
Joined on Nov 2010
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#271
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yes i wan't 
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2011-05-30
, 12:03
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Posts: 673 |
Thanked: 856 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
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#272
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Originally Posted by 9000
You can go shooting people around before having Nobel prize first. It is not a proper thing to do.
Thank God you didn't ask for Obama's quality, otherwise you'd be executed at where you live while he'd be looking at your panic face on a big screen remotely.
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2011-05-30
, 13:10
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#273
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I wonder how much it would cost Nokia to buy the (C) for all the code they are probably simply not disclosing because it had been done by subcontractors. Then OTOH evidently things like MCE were NO PROBLEM TO DISCLOSE for meego, just they decided to disclose a version that's incompatible with maemo's kernel, and also they left some plugins out. So PRETTY PLEASE explain to me why this was possible to disclose for meego, while maemo wasn't worth the effort?
On an irrelevant sidenote: I offered to sign a NDA and scan that ugly make-my-eyes-bleed code *for free* (modulo my own expenses) and to see what can be done with rewriting header files and general documentation so community could implement replacements without doing weird RE and disassembling, of course always getting review and allowance from $NOKIA for every bit I'd plan to contribute to community knowledge from that - reaction: you guessed it ... ...
Honestly this STINKS
@texrat: don't tell me you must not tell details about WHY Nokia allegedly can not disclose the sources. "It's too ugly" COME ON!!! Are you kidding? We're adults, most of us. And obscure statements about the world in general don't help either to make anybody feel more informed and agreeing on the case, whatever it might be.
To make it a bit more easy for you, *I* wil do it here and now, I'll say the word: PATENT INFRINGEMENT. Now you can either deny there's any such problem, and we're rid of at least one point you possibly aren't allowed to say, or you don't say anything at all and those looking for a new field to patent-troll have found their new target (honestly there's NO patent troll out there that would need anybody saying "Nokia might be afraid of patent trolls" to get the idea they actually were. Anyway now *I* did, so you can do as well and confirm, or you tell us better reasons)
/j
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2011-05-30 at 13:20.
On an irrelevant sidenote: I offered to sign a NDA and scan that ugly make-my-eyes-bleed code *for free* (modulo my own expenses) and to see what can be done with rewriting header files and general documentation so community could implement replacements without doing weird RE and disassembling, of course always getting review and allowance from $NOKIA for every bit I'd plan to contribute to community knowledge from that - reaction: you guessed it ... ...
Honestly this STINKS
@texrat: don't tell me you must not tell details about WHY Nokia allegedly can not disclose the sources. "It's too ugly" COME ON!!! Are you kidding? We're adults, most of us. And obscure statements about the world in general don't help either to make anybody feel more informed and agreeing on the case, whatever it might be.
To make it a bit more easy for you, *I* wil do it here and now, I'll say the word: PATENT INFRINGEMENT. Now you can either deny there's any such problem, and we're rid of at least one point you possibly aren't allowed to say, or you don't say anything at all and those looking for a new field to patent-troll have found their new target (honestly there's NO patent troll out there that would need anybody saying "Nokia might be afraid of patent trolls" to get the idea they actually were. Anyway now *I* did, so you can do as well and confirm, or you tell us better reasons)
/j
__________________
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2011-05-30 at 13:20.
| The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to joerg_rw For This Useful Post: | ||
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2011-05-30
, 13:13
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Banned |
Posts: 3,412 |
Thanked: 1,043 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#274
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Originally Posted by 9000
Why would iphone users come on here as it is a Maemo forum
Say....why would iPhone fans want source code from Nokia?
but ok see your point.
Some good posts coming out of the woodwork and stskeeps can be a key player here !.
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2011-05-30
, 13:16
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Banned |
Posts: 3,412 |
Thanked: 1,043 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#275
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
VERY valid point !!!.
I wonder how much it would cost Nokia to buy the (C) for all the code they are probably simply not disclosing because it had been done by subcontractors. Then OTOH evidently things like MCE were NO PROBLEM TO DISCLOSE for meego, just they decided to disclose a version that's incompatible with maemo's kernel, and also they left some plugins out. So PRETTY PLEASE explain to me why this was possible to disclose for meego, while maemo wasn't worth the effort?
/j
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2011-05-30
, 13:34
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Posts: 1,671 |
Thanked: 11,478 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#276
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
I (personally) think that was doomed to fail, given that you were calling Nokia employees idiots left and right and behaving a bit erratically at the time. That does not inspire confidence to allow something like that to work.
On an irrelevant sidenote: I offered to sign a NDA and scan that ugly make-my-eyes-bleed code *for free* (modulo my own expenses) and to see what can be done with rewriting header files and general documentation so community could implement replacements without doing weird RE and disassembling, of course always getting review and allowance from $NOKIA for every bit I'd plan to contribute to community knowledge from that - reaction: you guessed it ... ...
Let's be realistic about what can work in reality and what cannot - we're dealing with real business here.
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2011-05-30
, 13:46
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Banned |
Posts: 3,412 |
Thanked: 1,043 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#277
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps
This is sad to read as you are putting a definitive gap between Maemo and MeeGo, have you any idea how people would react if you actually helped in any way the cause for Maemo?.
Let's be realistic about what can work in reality and what cannot - we're dealing with real business here.
Is money all that matters to you?.
I personally think you could help in a big way !.
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2011-05-30
, 13:49
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Posts: 249 |
Thanked: 277 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Brighton, UK
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#278
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps
Brilliant, I'm embarrassed to say the domain name didn't click that you were behind that handy audit.
People seem to have issues finding figures on what's closed source and what's open source in Maemo5.
http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010...-pr11-and.html
Read the article first, then see http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo...penness/pr1.1/
This is for PR1.1. The figures hasn't really changed much in PR1.2, except that MCE (a later version), a ofono-based telephony stack for N900 modem, camera-firmware and some other things were open sourced. Some bits previously under strict licensing are now redistributable binaries for non-commercial purposes (BME, wifi/bt firmware, pulseaudio codecs/filters for 3GPP compliance, wifi calibration) and redistributable binaries in general (3d drivers).
There are probably some other examples but jetlag keeps me from remembering.
I only got my first N900 in mid 2010, and my second in late 2010, and only had the time to dev on it for the last few months, so kinda missed out on all the discussions pre-PR1.2.
I don't know if you've seen, but I've been advocating moving that info to the Maemo Wiki and updating it for each PR release (and CSSU thereafter), along with info about reimplementation efforts for each closed bit.
That way it's clear what needs to be focussed on to improve matters. There's surprisingly little info about how the components fit together on the wiki, which makes figuring out component interactions more work than it needs to be.
Do I have your permission to duplicate that audit to the wiki? I don't have the nous currently to find out the historical licensing changes, but getting it up there would be a good start.
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2011-05-30
, 14:02
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Posts: 673 |
Thanked: 856 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
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#279
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
Well, there are maybe other reasons for keeping it closed source...
To make it a bit more easy for you, *I* wil do it here and now, I'll say the word: PATENT INFRINGEMENT. Now you can either deny there's any such problem, and we're rid of at least one point you possibly aren't allowed to say, or you don't say anything at all and those looking for a new field to patent-troll have found their new target (honestly there's NO patent troll out there that would need anybody saying "Nokia might be afraid of patent trolls" to get the idea they actually were. Anyway now *I* did, so you can do as well and confirm, or you tell us better reasons)
/j
1. competition
2. patent infringement
3. platform control
4. Pure Specilation: One that comes to my mind is close-sourcing of open-source code.
Has anybody consulted Richard Stallman and FSF people on this subject?
It may be interesting to inspect the compliance of GPL code within maemo versions, and see if Nokia broke any rules. Given the shear number of people working on the project there must be at least one GPL violation.
In past FSF was successful in enforcing the GPL license terms. It took some time, but nowdays I think it would go much smoother.
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2011-05-30
, 14:03
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#280
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps
Sorry, but I simply MUST NOT answer what I think would be appropriate
I (personally) think that was doomed to fail, given that you were calling Nokia employees idiots left and right and behaving a bit erratically at the time. That does not inspire confidence to allow something like that to work.
Let's be realistic about what can work in reality and what cannot - we're dealing with real business here.
If somebody acts like an idiot I feel free to name that fact. If I think a system looks like it's been designed by fools on crack then I'm telling that, and I give links and evidence to my notion. And when we're talking about real business, OH REALLY?! Then how comes all this feels so childish ("source too ugly"), or maybe just like *real* business, the one where you get a kick in the back on leaving the cashier's desk. I'm totally realistic about what *could* have been done, and there's no need to trust any fool like me (who's been doing this crap for other companies, and there's been no issues with trust, neither with rather harsh words sometimes, when it's been about *things*, not *persons*), no - really no need for anybody like me or you, Nokia could have done the right thing from beginning, and they obviously still *can* do when meego aka you are asking them. They may **** in *my* garden, but I wonder how many customers will follow when somebody is going to ask for REPAIR of the things a normal phone should do, even when it's not written on the box ("you don't need a hammer to press the knobs of this phone" - haha you lose, dear customer, it's not a guaranteed feature of the device). In Europe we got 2 years warranty, you know? So I honestly suggest Nokia darn better does the right thing about maemo *now*, or they give some better rationale than "we don't support maemo anymore, you're supposed to buy a new meego device anyway, as we'll never going to make that maemo thing work like it should. Just wait another 2 years for it to come"
/j
__________________
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
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