Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)? - Page 28 - maemo.org

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	javispedro	2011-09-08 , 16:01
	Posts: 2,355 \| Thanked: 5,249 times \| Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona	#271

Originally Posted by abill_uk

Just how long is this useless batering going to go on? not only is it off topic it serves as no purpose to meego.

My irony detector just exploded.

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	ejasmudar	2011-09-08 , 16:02
	Posts: 800 \| Thanked: 957 times \| Joined on Sep 2010 @ India	#272

Originally Posted by abill_uk

there is no way i will talk anywhere but on this forum.

Is that a promise???

Hallelujah!!! There is hope....

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Last edited by ejasmudar; 2011-09-08 at 16:06.

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freemangordon	2011-09-08 , 16:03
Posts: 3,074 \| Thanked: 12,964 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ Sofia,Bulgaria	#273

Originally Posted by tekki

In fact, please - anyone who has anything to say, woody, freemangordon, ivgalvez, whoever, come and talk to us.

We're straightforward, calm and usually a forum doesn't do justice to proper live conversation and often misunderstandings appear. For CSSU we'll also gladly answer any questions that we may be able to answer to help you along.

Don't be shy - after all, we might all learn something from each other.

Thanks for the invitation, I will keep it in case your (CE adaptation team) help is needed. There is no such for now though I am sure I will need some when return back to DSP project.

In a meantime would you reconsider your position to not contribute to CSSU, it is a big loss to this community that such good developers don't contribute. I know for some of you Maemo 5 is dead and developing for it is a waste of time, just hoping not all of you share this belief.

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	ysss	2011-09-08 , 16:04
	Posts: 4,384 \| Thanked: 5,524 times \| Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou	#274

Are we there yet?

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tekki	2011-09-08 , 16:09
Posts: 60 \| Thanked: 198 times \| Joined on Aug 2011 @ Radical Realistic Open Source with JFDI instead of Bikeshedding	#275

Originally Posted by freemangordon

In a meantime would you reconsider your position to not contribute to CSSU, it is a big loss to this community that such good developers don't contribute. I know for some of you Maemo 5 is dead and developing for it is a waste of time, just hoping not all of you share this belief.

Got a list of work items? First thing you need, to attract contributors. (This is not only for me, but for everyone)

Please do come have a chat anyway - a lot of enlightening things that is afterwards usable in CSSU is often spoken about, such as how things are glued together etc.

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freemangordon	2011-09-08 , 16:21
Posts: 3,074 \| Thanked: 12,964 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ Sofia,Bulgaria	#276

Originally Posted by tekki

Got a list of work items? First thing you need, to attract contributors. (This is not only for me, but for everyone)

Please do come have a chat anyway - a lot of enlightening things that is afterwards usable in CSSU is often spoken about, such as how things are glued together etc.

Here you are http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/QA

... but please, don't ask me to distribute working items, I am not a project manager here (not a CSSU team member either). Just a random contributor.

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	w00t	2011-09-08 , 19:40
	Posts: 1,055 \| Thanked: 4,107 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Norway	#277

Originally Posted by abill_uk

What an opt-out that is, oh well i guess no member of the meego adaption team will participate on here.

*plonk*

see that, there? that was the end falling off the irony meter

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	woody14619	2011-09-08 , 20:27
	Posts: 1,455 \| Thanked: 3,309 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY	#278

Originally Posted by javispedro

firstly, that the number of closed components was similar to Maemo (proven false),

My contention wasn't that it was the same amount, but that the items that are closed in both will cause both to meet their demise at about the same time. So, no... not "proven false".

Originally Posted by javispedro

then, that Meego's goals were not to make an usable OS (proven false),

Again, why would you build something not useable? No... I said that the goal of MeeGo CE was to make an OS for developers, not for every-day N900 users. Again, you lie about what I've said...

Why are you such a huge liar?

Originally Posted by javispedro

that Meego's main target was not ARM (proven false)....

MeeGos main target (having started with Moblin) was Atom, not ARM. ARM was added as it was transitioned. So no, that was proven TRUE, not false, despite your objections to reality.

Originally Posted by javispedro

In case you want to learn something, that's usually called "microcode".

I know damn well what microcode is. The point being, AMD has never made an x86 line, nor have any of them be "x86". You saying it has is laughable, or pitiful, I'm not sure which.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Oh, for the sake of god. Nokia _made_ MeeGo. It's not that they had to grab the Moblin kernel and add their stuff as you would like to believe.

Tell that to the MeeGo FAQ. They're the one saying it started with Moblin and derived from there.

Originally Posted by javispedro

I did not say it "only supported compiling".

I never said you did. Read wtf I'm writing. I said just having a target doesn't mean you can run the whole system on a platform designed around that target. You've implied that because the upstream kernel supported a compile option for ARM that MeeGo (or Moblin, or anything using that kernel) somehow magically works on the target, which is FALSE. In order for the whole system to work, it must all be ready to run on that platform, including drivers, libraries and middle-ware layers. Moblin was not capable of running on ARM because of that, and neither was MeeGo at it's conception, until Nokia rolled in it's changes.

Originally Posted by javispedro

You can do that too, in case you wondered.

Wow, what a great idea:
"Hi... MeeGo? Yes, I was told by a person that lies constantly about what I've said, that your origins aren't what you claim them to be on the FAQ on your site. Can you fix that? Thx!"

Call me silly: I believe a community FAQ written by the community in question just a smidge more than I do someone who's not involved in the project, and has lied over a dozen times about what I've said already.

Originally Posted by javispedro

So if it is a joint project of Intel and Nokia, what part of "contributed by Nokia" is false?

The implication you made was that it was contributed by Nokia alone to a new project by Intel and Nokia. Reality is that Intel already had ofono, as it was a joint development. That would be two people buying a gift for themselves, then later opening it with people around, and you going "that one gave that gift to the other". No... ofono was a joint effort. MeeGo was a joint effort, by the same two companies. Nokia didn't bring ofono.

Originally Posted by javispedro

I work in CS. Can you tell me exactly why your solar powered calculator doesn't qualify as a computer?

I work in CS too! And in CE, having a dual degree...

If I show said calculator to anyone without a degree in CS (and most people with one) and ask "what is this?" the answer will not be "a computer". It will be "a calculator". If I then ask "is it a computer?" most would still say no. In a strict sense, an abacus in a computer, since you can do computation on it. But that's not how the term is commonly used. This is all beside the point though.

Silly me, basing my "vague choice of words" on common usage.

Originally Posted by javispedro

You said there aren't millions of ARM PCs for developers to debug their code. Despite the fact you're above admitting there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel.

Thanks for lyet another lie about what I've said. (Three times this post, for those counting along at home.)

What I said, had you bothered to read the post, was that there weren't enough ARM PCs with the correct level of hardware features commonly available. I even made a bullet pointed list of the requirements. You'll note that among them were things that even the latest BeagleBoard doesn't come with, like a GSM module, and a display.

But since you're playing these childish word games... Tell me: If there are so many ARM devices, and they're all "virtually identical" as you keep saying they are, why is it MeeGo doesn't work on the N950 and N9? I mean, really... if it all translates so well, and every pocket calculator is a suitable testing system, it should just work on the N950 and N9, shouldn't it?

And if they're "virtually the same hardware" as you've said many times now, what's the hold up? It's the same! You should be able to run it on the N8x0 and N7x00 as well, right?! They're virtually the same as a Beagle Board. You said so!

No... MeeGo can't. Because your logic is wrong... It's not a simple translation for one to the other. You need things to be very close, especially as the complexity of the system goes up. The oven timer software may very well run on my calculator. MeeGo will not. They all run ARM processors...

Originally Posted by javispedro

But WHY you assert that? Every _SINGLE_ device for where a MeegoCE project is started means more Meego development

Yes, new sub-platform development is more MeeGo developmet, but the inverse is not true. More MeeGo CE like projects means LESS work on MeeGo CE, as people migrate to better platforms, and have limits on time. More MeeGo development also means more chance that the core will move on, causing old blobs to be incompatible. That will either cause CE to either need huge divergent changes to keep up, or to freeze once those binary blobs are no longer updating. Which part of that is hard for you to understand?

A frog in a pot of water will eventually die. A frog in a pot of boiling water will die much faster.

Originally Posted by javispedro

I thought we were talking about a platform where Meego could be debugged and developed (a role you wrongly assumed only the N900 could fill)?

No.. not wrongly. Again: If the Beagle Board is so good, why is Meego not running on the N950 or N9 yet? Why can't it run on those if the Beagle Board is such a suitable test platform. The answer is, it's can't because it's not. Also, again: There would be far less interest (and far fewer people working on it) if one had to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on an otherwise useless kit just to join in.

Thanks again for proving my point. Again.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Bad example. All of it already runs in software.
...
Again you conveniently forget that Meego has MUCH fewer blobs (my main point, remember?). Among other things, the supplicant is entirely open.

That's great... And how does that help AT&T turns on the TMobile 3G frequencies? Oh, wait... it doesn't.

The example about wifi I gave wasn't to talk about blobs. It was to talk about the fact that there are still methods to use hardware sometimes even when you can't upgrade it to the latest technology. For example, using an open wifi point and requiring ssh routing to get past the router. But that's not useful when the changes are locked into hardware. The N900 faces just such an issue around 3G. MeeGo can't fix that, even if it goes 100% opensource.

Originally Posted by javispedro

What do you think I am, an idiot?

Your words, not mine.

Originally Posted by javispedro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe0rMUoHwyI
Probably you don't remember it.

Except that I mentioned it directly after the quote you cut, where I said "there was a commercial made, though I'm not sure it ever made it to anything but YouTube." Thanks for posting the link to the one example I gave as the exception, on YouTube.

Again, as far as I've seen, that advert was never played on any commercial station. There was not a second if air time purchased by Nokia for advertisement of the N900 in the US, and very little elsewhere, very similar to the campaign for the N9.

Originally Posted by javispedro

Don't redefine my words.

Perhaps if your words were a little clearer. Weren't you just criticizing me in that very post about not being clear?

Originally Posted by javispedro

How come? It was step 5 of 5!

Because they didn't put any funding behind advertising? Why are you asking me? Do I look like a Nokia decision maker? Do I have an @nokia.com tag in my signature?

I'm not debating if is should or shouldn't have. I'm talking about the factual past. The N900 was not targeted at the generic public. It was targeted, quite specifically, at a very narrow crowd.

This whole vein is off point though... you're good at that if nothing else: Squabbling about semantics and veering off topic when you're proven wrong, and/or have no facts to back up what you're saying.

Originally Posted by javispedro

I am sorry, wouldn't they be able to do that even better on their prototypes with debug dock stations and so on?

Yes, Nokia can. Can you? Can the average developer? Maybe everyone developing for MeeGo could just go out and buy a multi-hundred dollar Beagle Board, on a whim, so that they can participate in Nokia/Intels new OS?

Or, here's a crazy idea: Nokia can spend a little bit on a small core of people to back-port the new OS to a platform that lots of developers already bought, and are carrying around in the their pocket right now! Imagine that! They can develop for it without having to purchases a multi-hundred dollar kit that serves no other purpose than to tinker on.

Which of those two ideas do you think will attract more developers for your new system? One where someone has to spend hundreds of dollars on an otherwise useless prototype system and then work to get it barely working? Or one where they already have a compatible system in their pocket, at 70% functionality?

Originally Posted by javispedro

If you consider the iPad a tablet, then no

Who's talking about market segment? You said the N810 wasn't a tablet. Just like I said that everything with an ARM processor in it isn't a "computer". Why do you have such a stick up you posterior about calling an oven timer a computer, but then don't want to call something the the word tablet in it's production title a tablet?

Originally Posted by javispedro

Ah, reading between the lines eh? I don't do that.

Oh, right.. I should follow your example, and lie about it, claiming that you said it instead, right?

Originally Posted by javispedro

I seemingly know them better than you... could probably be because I've been monitoring it since day -1,

Or it could be because you believe your own made up lies...

Tell you what... Let's just see...

In a year or two, I'm betting MeeGo is about as used as ofono is today (eg, not much). I'm also betting Maemo will still be the OS of choice on most N900s that are left, because the MeeGo CE project is dropped by Nokia and left behind, like Win 3.11 was when Win 95 came out. Time will tell.

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	javispedro	2011-09-08 , 22:07
	Posts: 2,355 \| Thanked: 5,249 times \| Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona	#279

/me rubs hands together... Sorry folks, but I'm really having a good time doing this.
Maybe we could move this thread to offtopic so that it does not spam the Active Topics list? After all, all that could be said about the original thread question has been already said in post #3.

Originally Posted by woody14619

My contention wasn't that it was the same amount, but that the items that are closed in both will cause both to meet their demise at about the same time. So, no... not "proven false".

You said:

Originally Posted by woody14619

I'm saying when comparing two systems that are almost identical in which parts are closed vs open (in this case Maemo and MeeGo CE for N900, which is the only part of MeeGo we've been talking about in this thread), it makes little difference if one is marginally more open.

I then showed you some raw data that proved that the ratios of open/closed components were not only NOT "marginally different" but rather a few orders of magnitude different.
How are you going to avoid posting a retraction this time?

Originally Posted by woody14619

Again, why would you build something not useable? No... I said that the goal of MeeGo CE was to make an OS for developers, not for every-day N900 users.

And that would be right.

Originally Posted by woody14619

MeeGos main target (having started with Moblin) was Atom, not ARM. ARM was added as it was transitioned. So no, that was proven TRUE, not false, despite your objections to reality.

/me sighs. Not only you completely disregard my past points about this, but you also ignore facts out there like first releases for the N900 being done in less than three months since the merger _announcement_ (releases that didn't have any binary blobs as I've said many times).

Originally Posted by woody14619

I know damn well what microcode is. The point being, AMD has never made an x86 line, nor have any of them be "x86". You saying it has is laughable, or pitiful, I'm not sure which.

Ladies and gentlemen, woody14691, who hereby asserts that AMD has never made an x86 processor, that the Scorpion is not an ARM processor, and that does not know the difference between the Scorpion and the Snapdragon.
I'm sure you'll excuse if I laugh all the way down about this.

You surely must know there's a large difference between microcode+renaming (like in the Pentium Pro, NOT the Pentium) and emulation (like the Crusoe). Saying the Scorpion "emulates" the ARM ISA is just laughable, for many reasons. It _IMPLEMENTS_ it. If you read about any of the previous examples you'll know the difference.

Originally Posted by woody14619

I never said you did. Read wtf I'm writing. I said just having a target doesn't mean you can run the whole system on a platform designed around that target. You've implied that because the upstream kernel supported a compile option for ARM that MeeGo (or Moblin, or anything using that kernel) somehow magically works on the target, which is FALSE. In order for the whole system to work, it must all be ready to run on that platform, including drivers, libraries and middle-ware layers. Moblin was not capable of running on ARM because of that, and neither was MeeGo at it's conception, until Nokia rolled in it's changes.

Yeah. Which is why it was ready to go since nearly announcement day, as _even seen on the same FAQ entry you keep quoting around_.

Originally Posted by woody14619

The implication you made was that it was contributed by Nokia alone to a new project by Intel and Nokia. Reality is that Intel already had ofono, as it was a joint development. That would be two people buying a gift for themselves, then later opening it with people around, and you going "that one gave that gift to the other". No... ofono was a joint effort. MeeGo was a joint effort, by the same two companies. Nokia didn't bring ofono.

My implication is that Nokia _contributed to it_, remember?

Originally Posted by javispedro

And to say Nokia doesn't contribute to Meego other than the Qt GUI... look at sensord, ofono, even the kernel...

And before you try and warp reality to say it was an Intel-only project, read the ofono git logs. The first @nokia commit in the entire project history was done within the first half month! Virtually a year before Meego itself was announced.

Originally Posted by woody14619

If I show said calculator to anyone without a degree in CS (and most people with one) and ask "what is this?" the answer will not be "a computer". It will be "a calculator". If I then ask "is it a computer?" most would still say no. In a strict sense, an abacus in a computer, since you can do computation on it. But that's not how the term is commonly used. This is all beside the point though.

If you were answered such a question in one of supposed double degree tests, would you answer "No, It's not a computer"? If you _really_ had a CS degree, you could even say what kind of computer architecture it is.

This also reminds me of your weird assertions about the x86 architecture that are against both common usage and technical usage.

Originally Posted by woody14619

What I said, had you bothered to read the post, was that there weren't enough ARM PCs with the correct level of hardware features commonly available. I even made a bullet pointed list of the requirements. You'll note that among them were things that even the latest BeagleBoard doesn't come with, like a GSM module, and a display.

And, if you had bothered to read mine, you'd know that I mentioned why those requirements were not realistic.

Originally Posted by woody14619

why is it MeeGo doesn't work on the N950 and N9?

Again, your example has failed you, as there's both a N950 and a N9 image floating around, _even_ before the release of the N9.

Originally Posted by woody14619

And if they're "virtually the same hardware" as you've said many times now, what's the hold up? It's the same! You should be able to run it on the N8x0 and N7x00 as well, right?! They're virtually the same as a Beagle Board. You said so!

Where? I mentioned that the Beagleboard is exactly like the N900 (a 3530 vs a 3430) and in later revisions like a N950/N9 (3730 vs 3630). The N8x0 were OMAP2, not OMAP3. The 770 (not the N7x00, you ignorant) was OMAP1.

Originally Posted by woody14619

No... MeeGo can't. Because your logic is wrong... It's not a simple translation for one to the other.

I've elaborated why. Your turn.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Yes, new sub-platform development is more MeeGo developmet, but the inverse is not true. More MeeGo CE like projects means LESS work on MeeGo CE, as people migrate to better platforms, and have limits on time. More MeeGo development also means more chance that the core will move on, causing old blobs to be incompatible. That will either cause CE to either need huge divergent changes to keep up, or to freeze once those binary blobs are no longer updating.

I kinda remember something you yourself said about how this is not black and white.... about how you complained Meego was going to be dead because there were no new devices in the pipeline. So when I talk about how there might be, you then mention this hurts the project.

Classic.

Originally Posted by woody14619

No.. not wrongly. Again: If the Beagle Board is so good, why is Meego not running on the N950 or N9 yet? Why can't it run on those if the Beagle Board is such a suitable test platform. The answer is, it's can't because it's not.

See above.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Also, again: There would be far less interest (and far fewer people working on it) if one had to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on an otherwise useless kit just to join in.

I singled out this piece of hardware because it is one of the list that has been shipped for free to Meego developers. I even said it, I think...

Originally Posted by woody14619

That's great... And how does that help AT&T turns on the TMobile 3G frequencies? Oh, wait... it doesn't.

The example about wifi I gave wasn't to talk about blobs. It was to talk about the fact that there are still methods to use hardware sometimes even when you can't upgrade it to the latest technology. For example, using an open wifi point and requiring ssh routing to get past the router. But that's not useful when the changes are locked into hardware. The N900 faces just such an issue around 3G. MeeGo can't fix that, even if it goes 100% opensource.

Ok, so I reverse your example into something that is pure software based, at the same time converting it into an example for my point, and your reaction is to take it over the top until it really requires hw modifications. I could play that game too. But it doesn't help get the discussion moving.

What the heck does "Using an open wifi point and requiring ssh routing to get past the router" mean? "SSH routing" is one confusing term....

Originally Posted by woody14619

Except that I mentioned it directly after the quote you cut, where I said "there was a commercial made, though I'm not sure it ever made it to anything but YouTube." Thanks for posting the link to the one example I gave as the exception, on YouTube.

I personally saw it on the first day of the Barcelona Long Weekend, where then vicepresident Alberto Torres made a kind of presentation -- the fact that when I googled it a YouTube link showed up is purely coincidental. And btw, he did mention about the target being "young adults, heavy Facebook/IM users".

Originally Posted by woody14619

Again, as far as I've seen, that advert was never played on any commercial station. There was not a second if air time purchased by Nokia for advertisement of the N900 in the US, and very little elsewhere, very similar to the campaign for the N9.

Ok, point taken. Let's ignore the part of Step 5 of 5 because I've already retracted.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Yes, Nokia can. Can you? Can the average developer? Maybe everyone developing for MeeGo could just go out and buy a multi-hundred dollar Beagle Board, on a whim, so that they can participate in Nokia/Intels new OS?

"Multi-hundred" is rather stupid way of saying $125. Plus, as I've said, if you look at the Meego developer device distribution program...

Originally Posted by woody14619

Or, here's a crazy idea: Nokia can spend a little bit on a small core of people to back-port the new OS to a platform that lots of developers already bought, and are carrying around in the their pocket right now! Imagine that! They can develop for it without having to purchases a multi-hundred dollar kit that serves no other purpose than to tinker on.

I do NOT disagree with that plan. Note that you here used the word "back-port". That was exactly their contribution! They paid a team to backport their current in-dev OS to the N900.

Originally Posted by woody14619

Who's talking about market segment? You said the N810 wasn't a tablet. Just like I said that everything with an ARM processor in it isn't a "computer". Why do you have such a stick up you posterior about calling an oven timer a computer, but then don't want to call something the the word tablet in it's production title a tablet?

(Semantics: Stupid example you used here. I call an oven timer a computer despite the fact the it doesn't have computer in the title. Wouldn't it make sense that I wouldn't call the N8x0 a tablet even if it has it on the title?)
_You_ started the talk about market segments. By saying the N8x0 and N900 where in different ones.

Last edited by javispedro; 2011-09-08 at 22:28.