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	wicket	2017-08-26 , 16:33
	Posts: 634 \| Thanked: 3,266 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia	#2961

I just noticed this on the FAQ on the Neo900 website:

How much is my donation (above 100 EUR) worth?

If you made a donation greater than 100 EUR early on in the project you were given a voucher equal to the donated amount when we launched our shop.
This amount carry a 2% monthly interest until the day we require the full payment for the device, even if you use the provided voucher before this is asked for.

If you donated 100 EUR 2013-11-01 and we ask for full payment by 2015-11-01, your donation would be worth:
148.00 EUR; 2% monthly interest from original donation * 24 (months)

That's not how monthly interest works. Monthly interest is accumulative, meaning that the 2% is calculated every month on the new balance, not on the initial amount.

After 24 months, 2% monthly interest on a donation of €100 should be worth a total of €160.84.

It would be acceptable if your unusual method of calculating monthly interest was stated from the beginning, however the many of us placed donations before the FAQ or even the neo900.org website even existed. The original Goldelico page states:

The rebate amount will raise by 2% for each month between donation and start of shipment. E.g. 200 EUR entitle for 204 EUR rebate after 1 full month. This is a bonus for supporting the project upfront.

Of course the 1 month calculation is a bad example as it is valid for both methods of calculating interest, however there is nothing that states that the interest would be calculated from the initial donation amount every month, therefore most would assume that interest would be calculated the normal way.

Perhaps I shouldn't even be bringing this up, I don't really want to endanger the project any further. It's meant to a donation after all, so for all I care you can choose to do whatever you like with it. The interest earned however, was the one consolation for the extremely long delays we've had to endure.

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	joerg_rw	2017-08-26 , 16:56
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#2962

Originally Posted by wicket

That's not how monthly interest works.

That's however what we defined how THIS interest works. And you're aware that GolDeliCo is not part of this project anymore, right? The FAQ existed before the painful transfer of payments from GolDeliCo to Neo900.
Anyway we always been clear and open about the interest being NON-ACCUMULATIVE - I can tell for sure since I came up with it and I've been aware of the accumulative aspect and the problems in it from beginning. If Nikolaus didn't mention it on the GolDeliCo website (though I honestly doubt he missed to, alas I got no archived version of the GolDeliCo website at hand to point you at the particular paragraph explaining it in detail) then that's not my or Neo900 UG's fault. Now you claiming "this is not how it works" feels a little :-/
And before yet another misconception comes up: the interest is defined to never exceed the purchase price of the final order (aka number of preordered devices * price per unit). I'm aware that this starts to get unfair to those who were in with a higher amount from beginning - sorry for that.
On a sidenote: interest is what drives up the number of devices we need to build, to reach a break even. Even though I'd like to - I have no private fortune (except my personal prosperity and time) I could sacrifice on this project to compensate the economical aspects

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2017-08-26 at 17:41.

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	wicket	2017-08-26 , 17:02
	Posts: 634 \| Thanked: 3,266 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia	#2963

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

That's however what we defined how THIS interest works

Fair enough. I made a donation and you're free to do whatever you like with it. It's just a shame that you didn't define how THIS interest works at the time that I placed my donation.

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	wicket	2017-08-26 , 17:34
	Posts: 634 \| Thanked: 3,266 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia	#2964

I've just spotted your edit...

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

And you're aware that GolDeliCo is not part of this project anymore, right? The FAQ existed before the painful transfer of payments from GolDeliCo to Neo900.
Anyway we always been clear and open about the interest being NON-ACCUMULATIVE. Now you claiming "this is not how it works" feels a little :-/

I'm well aware that Goldelico is not part of this project anymore, but I'm also aware that you initiated the project and had been involved with Goldelico from day one. There was no FAQ when I placed my donation, there was only the information you see on the Goldelico page which mentions nothing about non-accumulative interest. I'm not claiming anything, I was just stating how interest is normally calculated in 99% of the world.

It's slightly disappointing but I'm really not fussed about it. I accept what you decided. All I really want is to not have to wait too much longer for my device.

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	joerg_rw	2017-08-26 , 17:38
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#2965

on an update though I've been told to better not do any more updates without checking back with our communications officer: Layout works are seeing some nice progress during last 3 weeks - finally

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	joerg_rw	2017-08-26 , 18:11
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#2966

Originally Posted by wicket

Fair enough. I made a donation and you're free to do whatever you like with it. It's just a shame that you didn't define how THIS interest works at the time that I placed my donation.

I'm not accepting this blame. It's not my fault when you didn't hear it, I'm absolutely sure I *always* was 100% clear about the interest being non-accumulative, exactly because I am (and always been) highly aware that this is not the most common definition of how interest gets calculated (on interest rates defined per month, either monthy or annual calculation is what is used in almost all cases. However monthly interest rates are rarely used to start with, so there's always been a need to elaborate on how it works). "I accept what you decided." insinuates that there's first been interest and later on there would have been a decision that this interest should be non-accumulative. That's not the case - it always been planned exactly the way it still is, so the only decision in this was the initial one to offer a 2% monthly non-accumulative interest for early suppporters. I don't know when you placed your donation but when it been with GolDeliCo then I had no influence in what been published on that website - however I'm damn sure there *was* a note about the non-accumulative aspect of interest as well. And with instructing GolDeliCo to transfer your donation to Neo900 UG you explicitly accepted the ToS of Neo900 UG which never been unclear or ambiguous about the interest.

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2017-08-26 at 18:42.

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misiak	2017-08-26 , 18:48
Posts: 804 \| Thanked: 1,598 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gdynia, Poland	#2967

Guys, Guys!

So after 40-something months since my donation, the amount has almost doubled, not tripled, good that it's clear now

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

And obviously since Neo900 is the very first such project we do, you rather may compare us to Pandora than to Pyra, and I'd hope that _our_ 2nd similar project "STEP2" will not suffer same amount of delays from "first need to find out _how_, or _who_, to accomplish that"

If "step 2" would be as epic compared to Neo900 as Pyra is compared to Pandora, I would also put some money into it (especially if it would be delivered in shorter time, etc. - you know, similar as Pyra to Pandora... that is a good analogy, Joerg).

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	joerg_rw	2017-08-26 , 19:19
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#2968

Originally Posted by misiak

[...] If "step 2" would be as epic compared to Neo900 as Pyra is compared to Pandora, I would also put some money into it (especially if it would be delivered in shorter time, etc. - you know, similar as Pyra to Pandora... that is a good analogy, Joerg).

A rough guess would be STEP2 being very similar to Pyra in core specs, since there's hardly another SoC to find. However STEP2 should be a "phone", not a gaming console. So clamshell is out, some hinge "slider" kbd like N97/N950 might be nice. And probably an OLED display. Beyond that (attention! comparison pivot), we will try to improve STEP2 over Pyra in a similar way to how we improved over Pandora (which has same DM3730 as we got) with Neo900. But maybe we actually find something even better than OMAP5 and still suitable for Open Hardware, we'll see

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2017-08-26 at 19:35.

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	Ken-Young	2017-08-27 , 03:21
	Posts: 387 \| Thanked: 1,700 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Cambridge, MA, USA	#2969

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

I'm not accepting this blame. It's not my fault when you didn't hear it, I'm absolutely sure I *always* was 100% clear about the interest being non-accumulative, exactly because I am (and always been) highly aware that this is not the most common definition of how interest gets calculated (on interest rates defined per month, either monthy or annual calculation is what is used in almost all cases.
[...]

It might be better to call this something other than "interest" so as not to confuse people who will assume it means compound interest. It might be better to call it a "pre-order discount" or something like that.

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gerbick	2017-08-27 , 03:56
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Originally Posted by Ken-Young

It might be better to call this something other than "interest" so as not to confuse people who will assume it means compound interest. It might be better to call it a "pre-order discount" or something like that.

Agreed. The term "interest" is misleading especially since it requires a new definition.

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