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2017-08-18
, 13:42
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Posts: 6,447 |
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Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#22
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Originally Posted by tortoisedoc
Agreed, of the three I have some experience with - N900, N9 and Jolla - the N900 has by far the best UI. By a huuuuuge margin. It is also by far the easiest to develop for.
...N900 offers mainly a command line. But also a UI.
In terms of usability, the best UI I have ever used on any mobile device was on Palm OS. I did not care much for the frankly appalling graffiti abomination but my phone had a QWERTY keyboard and was designed in such a way that I could hold it in one hand and thumb type while walking, without looking, holding a suitcase in the other hand. The size, spacing and layout of key bumps were optimized for that purpose, unlike any other phone I used before or since, including the N900. To such details that for example, in the numeric mode, you did not need to press Shift to enter a decimal point (unlike the N900). Black text on a white background made reading the text a doddle, despite a low screen resolution (only 300x300). Yet again, unlike on N900 or Jolla. Key shortcuts, a ringer switch, contacts grouping - you name it, everything was thought through to the last detail. It may not have been "pretty" by today's standards (just plain flat graphics, no frills), but it was functional. In a way, similar to Maemo. Sailfish, on the other hand, takes the opposite extreme - aesthetics above all, at the cost of function and usability.
Why oh why do "modern" UI designers have to reinvent the wheel when they have so many excellent examples from the past to use for inspiration? I suspect in most cases it is because they are not aware of them but then it is still their fault: one should always do some research first before jumping into designing anything.
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Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2017-08-18
, 13:52
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Posts: 592 |
Thanked: 1,167 times |
Joined on Jul 2012
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#23
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Originally Posted by pichlo
I wonder if that's the reason which got the Nokia guys into Harmattan / qt based ui in the first place
Why oh why do "modern" UI designers have to reinvent the wheel when they have so many excellent examples from the past to use for inspiration? I suspect in most cases it is because they are not aware of them but then it is still their fault: one should always do some research first before jumping into designing anything.
.
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2017-08-18
, 18:37
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Posts: 1,313 |
Thanked: 2,977 times |
Joined on Jun 2011
@ Finland
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#24
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Originally Posted by tortoisedoc
What's up with the gtk obsession? Maemo 5 UI could have easily been written on Qt, and it'd probably have resulted in less lines of code and better quality than the gtk version.
Could jolla have ditched harmattan in favour of Maemo, upgraded gtk to latest to get the multitouch, replaced QT 4.7 with 5.1 on top of it, integrated libhybris, and released a device?
Maemo 5 was written in gtk because the whole push into Qt and QML came later than N900's development. Even if MeeGo didn't happen and Nokia would have continued with Maemo base, the push to Qt / QML would have happened anyway. And in my opinion quite rightly. Qt is much better and easier framework than gtk.
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2017-08-18
, 20:08
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#25
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Originally Posted by tortoisedoc
AFAIK Harmattan UI was supposed to be an evolution from Fremantle/N900 UI but in the end something that was originally developed outside Nokia was used to simply get the device out in reasonable time. Personally I preferred the N9 UI, it was at the same time efficient, yet elegant and different in every day use (as my days of trying to actually do something productive on mini-size device are by far gone). Perhaps not for extreme multi tasking tough... also, there is strong NIH-attitude in most big corporations, so there may be cultural etc. reasons for not simply copying some UI paradigm to begin with.
I wonder if that's the reason which got the Nokia guys into Harmattan / qt based ui in the first place
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2017-08-18
, 20:37
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Posts: 334 |
Thanked: 2,004 times |
Joined on Oct 2013
@ Fin
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#26
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Ex-colleague from harmattan team said that UI was done 3 times again. First one wasn't completely finished when they had to start again because of new UI lead person came to the company. They almost had finished the 2nd one when the new UI lead got fired(?) and then they let UI design be done by external company. That is now the harmattan UI.
From @n950 prototype pictures one can see UI of the unfinished harmattan UI. I should ask did Dali have 1st or 2nd version of harmattan UI. My Ex-colleague blames the UI lead guy, who came from m$ and went back there, that the initial harmattan release was late.
From @n950 prototype pictures one can see UI of the unfinished harmattan UI. I should ask did Dali have 1st or 2nd version of harmattan UI. My Ex-colleague blames the UI lead guy, who came from m$ and went back there, that the initial harmattan release was late.
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2017-08-18
, 20:47
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Posts: 592 |
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Joined on Jul 2012
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#27
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Originally Posted by ajalkane
Its not about gtk vs qt, really. See it from the eyes of someone living in 2010. Bigger things are at play here, gtk was merely a temporary actor to keep things afloat until qt was mature enough. Nokia had it very well foreseen (to switch to qt) and planned already in that sense. And the fact hildon could be written in less code with qt could also be seen as a proof to it, perhaps.
What's up with the gtk obsession? Maemo 5 UI could have easily been written on Qt, and it'd probably have resulted in less lines of code and better quality than the gtk version.
Maemo 5 was written in gtk because the whole push into Qt and QML came later than N900's development. Even if MeeGo didn't happen and Nokia would have continued with Maemo base, the push to Qt / QML would have happened anyway. And in my opinion quite rightly. Qt is much better and easier framework than gtk.
I mean think about the madness of all of this.
Nokia had everything planned out. Multitouch, the platform for it (yes, Qt), and the devices (maemo / S90?). We are talking about
*billions* of euros (or dollars, if you prefer). Thousands of workers, relying on the company they trust in, an immense patent portfolio that was *way* ahead of their time (btw apple just agreed to pay royalties to Nokia kthxbye).
And what happened? They got cold feet. They chickened out in the most importand moment, when the whole development is in high gears, and any small disruption can break it. Steve Jobs striked with the iPhone, and the Finnish guys's sisu's shrank to a white dwarfs size, and the blackhole that resulted swallowed the whole mobile division. That plausible? Could they have gotten cold feet from android? Android was so limited back then, noone thought it would be able to grow where it is today.
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BWizz - best N9 bookmark editing tool! Check it out ->BWizz for Harmattan
LINKer - transform your N9's home view in a Desktop, give it the freedom it deserves! -> LINKer for Harmattan
QuickBar - Can't find the app you used yesterday in your overcrowded Home Screen? Want access to the QuickLaunch bar even in the home screen? QuickBar for Harmattan
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Last edited by tortoisedoc; 2017-08-18 at 21:00.
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2017-08-18
, 22:50
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Posts: 1,313 |
Thanked: 2,977 times |
Joined on Jun 2011
@ Finland
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#28
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Originally Posted by tortoisedoc
If we're thinking about 2010, then personally I think Nokia should have taken Android seriously. They probably did. Android was back then the "open" solution compared for example to iPhone and Symbian. I remember seriously considering one of the HTC devices back then. I remember also considering N900, but decided back then that perhaps I'll wait for the next iteration that I supposed would suit me better. And of course Nokia gave up on it, I got fooled
See it from the eyes of someone living in 2010.
...
Could they have gotten cold feet from android? Android was so limited back then, noone thought it would be able to grow where it is today.
.But I don't think Android was anything to scoff at even back then. In fact considering the time, I thought it was one of the more promising and open mobile operating systems. I do wish the whole MeeGo alliance with Intel never would have happened, I think the progress would have been swifter with just maemo base and going to harmattan and beyond.
But I'm glad we have Sailfish, since it's currently really the only suitable choice for me. I fear for the day that I have only iOS and Android as practical choices.
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2017-08-19
, 05:56
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Posts: 498 |
Thanked: 836 times |
Joined on Jun 2012
@ Finland
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#29
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While all opinions here have probably at least some truth behind them and are good, it should be remembered that success and selection of OS's is much more than just libraries and lines of code and coding language. Sometimes what is "best" on coders or developers viewpoint does not justify the selection.
Sorry to say, but most often this is what is forgotten by developers. When making a phone for global markets, there is much, much more in play. Even with the company that Nokia was. Strategic alliances, investors, marketing and of course finally, the consumer. These just to name a few outside the actual tech realm.
Command line does not sell you phones. Period. It is a tool of only few when scaled to the magnitude of what Nokia was aiming to sell at those times. Added value of open boot loader or influence of Aegis or whatever, in grand scale does not matter when you are selling the phone to a consumer. Some say that n900 had great UI, and while I personally would agree to some extent, it was utter sh*t compared to even early iterations of iPhone when the phone was given to average user. This matter. The shine above the hood, not what is under them. It just needs to work well enough with others and shine for the customer.
Adding then to that, is what your OS can do for other companies that add to your, and theirs, revenue. Apple had all in place. Some say, they had the full ecosystem already. Android was already ahead of Symbian when it comes to opening your OS for added value, yes in expense of privacy, but U know, 90% of the consumers dont care. And the 10% doesn't matter.
If all cookies would have been put to same basket, could Nokia have made it with Maemo 5, Symbian or Meego? Impossible to say, of course, but if I had to quess gtk or qt would not have mattered. Maemo 5 UI definitely would not have made it. Marketing research was very clear of that. Meego was great on that side, but it would have needed so much more punch behind it. Android was already so far ahead and also backed up by Google. Could actually anything have compared with that?
All in all, I would really want to know what made them choose Win. Yes, I could see the potential of synergy with the de facto PC leader OS (kind of what Apple had done), but Win phone was SO MUCH behind all else, that in a situation where they also themselves were behind others, I can't see what were they really hoping to happen and what failed it?
Original opening of this thread is interesting. Stories we now hear of what was going on and how flawed development had become at Nokia sends shivers to your spine.
I personally like to have opinion that the management simply got too scared and froze/panicked. Result was terrible mistakes. Nokia had it all, but they simply didn't know/or manage what to do when things weren't going well.
Sorry to say, but most often this is what is forgotten by developers. When making a phone for global markets, there is much, much more in play. Even with the company that Nokia was. Strategic alliances, investors, marketing and of course finally, the consumer. These just to name a few outside the actual tech realm.
Command line does not sell you phones. Period. It is a tool of only few when scaled to the magnitude of what Nokia was aiming to sell at those times. Added value of open boot loader or influence of Aegis or whatever, in grand scale does not matter when you are selling the phone to a consumer. Some say that n900 had great UI, and while I personally would agree to some extent, it was utter sh*t compared to even early iterations of iPhone when the phone was given to average user. This matter. The shine above the hood, not what is under them. It just needs to work well enough with others and shine for the customer.
Adding then to that, is what your OS can do for other companies that add to your, and theirs, revenue. Apple had all in place. Some say, they had the full ecosystem already. Android was already ahead of Symbian when it comes to opening your OS for added value, yes in expense of privacy, but U know, 90% of the consumers dont care. And the 10% doesn't matter.
If all cookies would have been put to same basket, could Nokia have made it with Maemo 5, Symbian or Meego? Impossible to say, of course, but if I had to quess gtk or qt would not have mattered. Maemo 5 UI definitely would not have made it. Marketing research was very clear of that. Meego was great on that side, but it would have needed so much more punch behind it. Android was already so far ahead and also backed up by Google. Could actually anything have compared with that?
All in all, I would really want to know what made them choose Win. Yes, I could see the potential of synergy with the de facto PC leader OS (kind of what Apple had done), but Win phone was SO MUCH behind all else, that in a situation where they also themselves were behind others, I can't see what were they really hoping to happen and what failed it?
Original opening of this thread is interesting. Stories we now hear of what was going on and how flawed development had become at Nokia sends shivers to your spine.
I personally like to have opinion that the management simply got too scared and froze/panicked. Result was terrible mistakes. Nokia had it all, but they simply didn't know/or manage what to do when things weren't going well.
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2017-08-19
, 07:17
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Posts: 592 |
Thanked: 1,167 times |
Joined on Jul 2012
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#30
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Originally Posted by Boxeri
Apart of the technical implementation, definitely the idea goes towards features (and how ready they were). Then how they are implemented might affect if they will be used or not. But then we talk in terms of usability. I do not remember the N900 being unusable (in terms of UI), to be fair rather the opposite, perhaps even more usable than n9 (im thinking basic usage here). Maybe the connectivity was limited; but when I got my n9, importing contacts from it was a breeze (and remember being extremely surprised by this btw).
While all opinions here have probably at least some truth behind them and are good, it should be remembered that success and selection of OS's is much more than just libraries and lines of code and coding language. Sometimes what is "best" on coders or developers viewpoint does not justify the selection.
Sorry to say, but most often this is what is forgotten by developers. When making a phone for global markets, there is much, much more in play. Even with the company that Nokia was. Strategic alliances, investors, marketing and of course finally, the consumer. These just to name a few outside the actual tech realm.
Command line does not sell you phones. Period. It is a tool of only few when scaled to the magnitude of what Nokia was aiming to sell at those times. Added value of open boot loader or influence of Aegis or whatever, in grand scale does not matter when you are selling the phone to a consumer. Some say that n900 had great UI, and while I personally would agree to some extent, it was utter sh*t compared to even early iterations of iPhone when the phone was given to average user. This matter. The shine above the hood, not what is under them. It just needs to work well enough with others and shine for the customer.
Adding then to that, is what your OS can do for other companies that add to your, and theirs, revenue. Apple had all in place. Some say, they had the full ecosystem already. Android was already ahead of Symbian when it comes to opening your OS for added value, yes in expense of privacy, but U know, 90% of the consumers dont care. And the 10% doesn't matter.
Definitely as far as connections goes, Nokia must have been first. I mean, leading mobile supplier at the time and so. Everyone knows Nokia was known for its excellent operator relationships iirc.
What did the N900 not have compared to the iPhone? All that apple had ready was the fact that it was connectable with all the iMac series of products; plus the shiny chrome.
All in all, could it be Maemo was not being "well received" by operators? How open was Maemo? IIRC, Maemo was open to a certain extent. This is definitely a point where android succeeded better.
It is also in a way funny that a walled operating system is more succesfull that any which claimed to be "open". Except android, that is.
Which reminds me, android was perhaps (at the time) more speed-focussed (rather than chrome). I do not remember how well it was working w/r towards the surroundings (as in connectivity etc). Comparing it to jolla, which yes is shiny, but cant be connected to anything, is that a good match (think 2010)?
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LINKer - transform your N9's home view in a Desktop, give it the freedom it deserves! -> LINKer for Harmattan
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If you like our work, and would like to support via PayPal : users.giulietta@gmail.com
BWizz - best N9 bookmark editing tool! Check it out ->BWizz for Harmattan
LINKer - transform your N9's home view in a Desktop, give it the freedom it deserves! -> LINKer for Harmattan
QuickBar - Can't find the app you used yesterday in your overcrowded Home Screen? Want access to the QuickLaunch bar even in the home screen? QuickBar for Harmattan
If you like our work, and would like to support via PayPal : users.giulietta@gmail.com
Last edited by tortoisedoc; 2017-08-19 at 07:29.
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The talk about versions is a bit preposterous; it's too easy to say that now android 2.3 phones still run apps that are made for android 6.0, when the same could have happened if say Qt would have taken over the world instead of alien dalvik.. winners write history or wat
BWizz - best N9 bookmark editing tool! Check it out ->BWizz for Harmattan
LINKer - transform your N9's home view in a Desktop, give it the freedom it deserves! -> LINKer for Harmattan
QuickBar - Can't find the app you used yesterday in your overcrowded Home Screen? Want access to the QuickLaunch bar even in the home screen? QuickBar for Harmattan
If you like our work, and would like to support via PayPal : users.giulietta@gmail.com