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ColdFusion is offline ColdFusion
2009-04-19 , 22:04
Posts: 397 | Thanked: 227 times | Joined on May 2007
#21
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Probably what is sometimes shocking is the combination of love for the known products (most of us like the Internet Tablets and this is why we are here) combined with a consistent mistrust and fatalism to whatever is unclear about the future. You know this is a progression and the steps done with the 3 previous devices can be reasonably called successful. Well, you can expect by default success with the next step - unless you have tangible reasons to fear otherwise.
It's not that shocking, it's common human nature that lack of information breeds rumours.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
As an example there was that guy saying that if nobody of Nokia had commented on [fatal rumor X] it meant that the rumour could be confirmed. Interesting conclusion. Why not taking it the other way around: since September 2008 we have announced some features that show a trend and a future. Most of the relevant changes (and definitely most of the changes relevant to developers) have been announced already. If we haven't said anything about [feature X] is perhaps because there aren't changes worth mentioning, or no changes at all.
And still the ONLY way to fight rumours is to take time to address them by giving enough credible information.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Going back to the core topic of device announcements. As many of you are saying in several places, announcements are just one part of the game. Sales starts, price points, countries covered, quality of the first software release, timing and frequency of software updates... All these are ingredients that might end up being more important even if they don't take so much buzz as the new pictures and demos.
Of cource, any information that might be relevant to me as a potential buyer is important. And still what would happen if we get an announcement about the hardware, form factor, keyboard, stylus, screen, etc? Some "leaked blurry photos" and you can guarantee more positive rumours.

I don't think that in the future companies will countinue to work in that "cold war" style.
 
BoxOfSnoo is offline BoxOfSnoo
2009-04-19 , 22:54
Posts: 259 | Thanked: 72 times | Joined on Dec 2007 @ Halifax, NS
#22
Originally Posted by lcuk View Post
snoo, he wrote the kernel himself before announcing it.

as noted here from his own posting:

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/rhasan/linux/
Uh, yes... I know that. In fact, that is exactly the reference I used. Go back and read his *whole post* not just that (out of context) snippet. Full source was available plus the post was an invitation to contribute.

If you mean that he made a project that basically compiled before releasing it, I don't see that that matters at all. That's common sense. Besides he remained the final point of release for all kernels anyway.

That's much different than Nokia's closed approach. GA said it best - "the occasional code tossed over the wall".

Anyway, I've said what I think and I'm just rehashing it now. This fight is unwinnable. I think any real progress is happening in the Mer and Ubuntu projects from now on though.
Last edited by BoxOfSnoo; 2009-04-19 at 22:56.
 
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qole is offline qole
2009-04-20 , 00:49
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#23
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
The way I see it, the NITs are pretty much an island, there is practically no alternative today if one wants truly pocketable openness (with android devices just emerging on the horizon).
Even that is overly optimistic; everything has to be re-written for the unique environment of Android.

Maemo's standardness is its main strength, the thing that sets the Maemo devices apart from all the rest. That's a standard Linux kernel under the hood, and everything is built on standard, open-source toolkits, so it is relatively painless to port stuff... Unlike the competition, which requires a complete development from scratch approach.

Nokia's hardware / product strategy is still pretty old-fashioned, though. I understand qgil's assertion that we're talking Real Money here, but his post sounded like an apology that nobody at Nokia is brave enough to risk Real Money on an unproven strategy, followed by a challenge along the lines of, "None of you big talkers would be brave enough either!"

In response, I'll say two things -- first, Nokia's still making a healthy profit, even in 'these times', and secondly, increased risk can lead to increased profit, sometimes.

But I think the risks inherent in the Maemo SW division are already high, and so we won't see any more risky behaviour, at least in the short term.
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Last edited by qole; 2009-04-20 at 01:00. Reason: link to qgil's post
 

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mullf is offline mullf
2009-04-20 , 01:46
Posts: 610 | Thanked: 391 times | Joined on Feb 2006 @ DC, USA
#24
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
You know this is a progression and the steps done with the 3 previous devices can be reasonably called successful.
The 770 is the finest machine I have ever seen. However, the attributes that make the 770 so cool have been/look clearly to continue to be systematically destroyed with the various successor/future successor units.

If you were still manufacturing 770s, then I could look forward to buying a new one when my unit eventually dies, but since that is not the case, it saddens me that after years and years and years of searching for the perfect mobile device, and then finding it, that it has been sh*tcanned so quickly.
 

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KristianW is offline KristianW
2009-04-20 , 04:38
Posts: 263 | Thanked: 77 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Sigtuna, Sweden
#25
There is, I guess, a more than usual uncertainty about the future of portable computing.

Within a couple of years we will have ~10 or more hours of enough computing power for most people
very pocketable.
But not even (we) consumers know what kind of ergonomics we will want to carry with us.

Linux seems to be rapidly growing as a focus of interest.
And the ARM architecture has yet no real competition (?).
But what to put it into ?

Consider "old" times with paper and pencil, and the popular sizes of calendars :
Anything from a bit smaller than an n810 to a bit larger than a Filofax.

Really pocketable > smartphone size - (thin) NITs.
For photo albums > postcard size screen, or more ?
For keeping your diary > a really good (possibly thumb) keyboard.
Or a projector + a small screen ?
And how will business needs adapt ?

Will trousers have side pockets for light ~4*6*.5 inch devices ?
How about handbag fashion ?

Or (some time later) a sheet of fast colour-digital-paper containing computer and battery,
that curles up around your arm under the shirt/jacket sleeve, but snaps flat when you use it.


So, I guess Nokia would want maemo to take care of all kinds of input/output methods and sizes ASAP,
( software maturing slower than hardware, )

>> but I doubt that they (or the competition) have any good idea about the best strategy to achieve that without loosing a head start !


Nokia, anyway, made a brave start.
As to the difficulties they have had (and made) trying to merge with open source methods,
I think any large company would have had them.

It is difficult to make so different methods of developement cooperate efficiently.
I have seen that in other circumstances (http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...5&postcount=91).
Last edited by KristianW; 2009-04-20 at 04:47.
 

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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-04-20 , 05:47
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#26
Originally Posted by BoxOfSnoo View Post
I think any real progress is happening in the Mer and Ubuntu projects from now on though.
This is clearly not true. Whatever else you may think about Nokia and its open source endeavors aside, Debian and Ubuntu's mobile efforts wouldn't be anywhere near where they are today without the work Nokia has been putting into mobile Linux, and Mer wouldn't even exist.

No, whether you'd like to admit it or not, Nokia is still a leader in the mobile Linux space and the larger, more established distributions are benefiting from it.
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Andre Klapper is offline Andre Klapper
2009-04-20 , 06:03
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#27
Originally Posted by lcuk View Post
Being secretive and developing behind closed doors allows a group to focus on the vision and spec without ending up with a stinking pile of committee driven code.
My favourite example for proving this are Dan's elaborations on Novell's gnome-main-menu development (the technical details are outdated nowadays, but his points from 2006 are still valid: Bike shed, stop energy). See http://mail.gnome.org/archives/deskt.../msg00115.html .
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-04-20 , 06:26
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#28
Originally Posted by Andre Klapper View Post
My favourite example for proving this are Dan's elaborations on Novell's gnome-main-menu development.
The problem here is that continued development in a lot of areas depends on having the information Nokia is withholding. Take the Application Manager. There's a fair bit of interest in improving it and even an idea or two about how to go about doing it, but because we don't really have much of a clue about what Nokia's planning for it in Fremantle, nobody's willing to spend any time working on it for fear of having that time turn into a total waste.

Thus, we're left treading water.
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2009-04-20 , 08:51
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#29
Originally Posted by Andre Klapper View Post
My favourite example for proving this are Dan's elaborations on Novell's gnome-main-menu development (the technical details are outdated nowadays, but his points from 2006 are still valid: Bike shed, stop energy). See http://mail.gnome.org/archives/deskt.../msg00115.html .
I don't think that proves anything, except that Novell confused an increase in openness with a total loss of control.

Alan Cox's reply is particular relevant:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/deskt.../msg00156.html

Yes, they'd've got a whole load of comments, but they didn't have to implement all the suggestions; or take every patch. That's where leadership comes in:


From maemo.org: what next?, by me exactly one year ago

However, by being more open they could get community involvement and buy-in. Many of the comments may have been dross, but some could have been good!
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twaelti is offline twaelti
2009-04-20 , 11:54
Posts: 883 | Thanked: 980 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Bern, Switzerland
#30
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
The problem here is that continued development in a lot of areas depends on having the information Nokia is withholding. Take the Application Manager. There's a fair bit of interest in improving it and even an idea or two about how to go about doing it, but because we don't really have much of a clue about what Nokia's planning for it in Fremantle, nobody's willing to spend any time working on it for fear of having that time turn into a total waste.

Thus, we're left treading water.
IMHO, the application manager is one of the key end-user experience elements that Nokia wants to control themselves so that it fits into the overall device experience. This could be the reason why they keep it close/d.
 

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