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NokTokDaddy is offline NokTokDaddy
2011-07-06 , 12:40
Posts: 248 | Thanked: 240 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ Wiltshire, UK
#21
Originally Posted by sinaisix View Post
Anti-Elop stance? Elop has by his actions, pronouncements and everything destroyed Nokia in the last year than all of Nokia's rot since the days of old.

Elop is systematically destroying Nokia, it's cool if one chooses not to see, but Nokia *is* definitely going down under Elop
Well, that's your opinion, and I can respect that without having to agree with it.

Nokia needed radical and rapid change; many of us criticised them for failing to do this, that, or the other. We saw them fail with many devices and services following the N95's huge success and felt helpless as iOS and Android took over the world.

And then this guy Elop comes along who starts to shake things up. He has a radical plan, and the energy to implement it at top speed. It is just too early to proclaim him either a success or a failure yet - we'll need to get to at least the end of 2012 (EDIT) to see if Elop's Nokia have been able to make any headway.

Until then, change is painful - as in all things in life. Market share will fall further, which runs the risk of more profit warnings and reduced creditworthiness - these are all part of the change necessary to turn a company around; no pain = no gain.

Did we really expect someone to just come in as CEO and wave a magic wand over Symbian and Maemo/Meego and achieve what Nokia have failed to implement over the last few years?

Did we really expect anyone could get all this right second-time round when Nokia had failed first time?

What Elop is doing is a huge gamble; he's trying to leap-frog over the opposition whose current OS's are approaching mid-life by adopting a nascent OS that is still largely unformed.

I couldn't use WP7 as my everyday device, nor could many, I suspect. But Mango will bring huge strides in usability and features. Nokia's experience will help shape WP beyond Mango and the potential of that is way too big to contemplate here.

But to get there we need to give Elop's Nokia time. nevermind the N9, the Sea Ray prototype shows how far Elop's Nokia have come in the very short time he has had within the company.

to get a new device ready for market usually takes a manufacturer over two years, and Elop's Nokia will have undercut that considerably if they launch in early 2012. If they launch in Oct/Nov they'll become the stuff of legend.

You are right in one sense: Elop will have to destroy the old for the new to flourish. The message has to be clear: Windows Phone is Nokia's future. If that means being seen to kill off Symbian and Meego, then that is a risk worth taking.

But we should also remember that nothing is truly 'killed off'; Meego still exists and despite Elop's words will remain an option for Nokia's future.

I hope so, because from what I've seen so far, and my time with the N900 I bloody love it
 

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volt is offline volt
2011-07-06 , 13:13
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#22
Originally Posted by NokTokDaddy View Post
It is just too early to proclaim him either a success or a failure yet - we'll need to get to at least the end of 2012 (EDIT) to see if Elop's Nokia have been able to make any headway.
No.

You think running Nokia is about getting out a better ecosystem/OS. It's not. Running Nokia is about making money for the stock holders. It's already evident that Elop has lost half of Nokia's value in mere months. We can all agree that Nokia needed a new strategy. However, nobody who trades in stock believe that Nokia has chosen the right strategy. Every time he opens his mouth, business analysts downrate the Nokia stock even more.



At this point, Nokia is at risk of being bought out and divided, because the value of Nokias assets is higher than the stock value.

That's how you evaluate Elops leadership. Traders believe that Nokia now isn't even worth what they own. Even when everybody thought Symbian was a sinking boat and Nokia refused to see it, they still believed Nokia had a brighter future than they do now that Nokia has displayed their new course. Even when Nokia cut costs and got rid of thousands of employees, cynical economists didn't think it would improve Nokias outlook.

Why not? Because everybody could see that Nokia could have milked Symbian for several more years. That's billions of dollars that Nokia basically turned their back to. While they still were selling billions of Symbian phones, they could have spent a billion dollar on building or buying a new OS for their phones. Instead they said 'we are too slow and stupid, we give up, also Symbian really suck'.

And remember, Elop doesn't stick around anywhere for a long period. He's now on his 10th month in Nokia, which is a third of his time in Microsoft, and five sixths of his time in Juniper. Before that he held the previous positions for six and three months. Those three months as CEO in Macromedia was enough to get it eaten by the competition - exactly what business analysts believe Nokia is in danger of being now.

Nokias owners has lost half it's value in half a year, and the revenue has dropped like a bomb since the suicide letter leak February 9th. Nokia has lost confidence in retail, in developers, in customers and the brand name has taken a giant dent. This is compared to before when everybody already thought Symbian sucked.

There is no way that the dramatic and sudden loss of 2011 revenue - all happening AFTER the new strategy was announced - can be restored in 2012. We even know how well the next OS will sell - because Windows Phones it's already in stores now. Windows Phones has not only lost market share but even units sold, compared to Windows *Mobile, which already was a small OS.

Yes, Windows Phones will sell better in Europe with Nokia. But Nokia will not sell more Windows Phones then they sold Symbian phones, that's clear as day.

Elop has been a disaster for Nokia, and he will not be around long enough to see that change.
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Last edited by volt; 2011-07-06 at 15:28. Reason: *Edit: Wrote Windows Phone, ment Windows Mobile
 

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droitwichgas is offline droitwichgas
2011-07-06 , 13:18
Posts: 523 | Thanked: 292 times | Joined on Jan 2010
#23
Originally Posted by NokTokDaddy View Post
Well, that's your opinion, and I can respect that without having to agree with it.

Nokia needed radical and rapid change; many of us criticised them for failing to do this, that, or the other. We saw them fail with many devices and services following the N95's huge success and felt helpless as iOS and Android took over the world.

And then this guy Elop comes along who starts to shake things up. He has a radical plan, and the energy to implement it at top speed. It is just too early to proclaim him either a success or a failure yet - we'll need to get to at least the end of 2012 (EDIT) to see if Elop's Nokia have been able to make any headway.

Until then, change is painful - as in all things in life. Market share will fall further, which runs the risk of more profit warnings and reduced creditworthiness - these are all part of the change necessary to turn a company around; no pain = no gain.

Did we really expect someone to just come in as CEO and wave a magic wand over Symbian and Maemo/Meego and achieve what Nokia have failed to implement over the last few years?

Did we really expect anyone could get all this right second-time round when Nokia had failed first time?

What Elop is doing is a huge gamble; he's trying to leap-frog over the opposition whose current OS's are approaching mid-life by adopting a nascent OS that is still largely unformed.

I couldn't use WP7 as my everyday device, nor could many, I suspect. But Mango will bring huge strides in usability and features. Nokia's experience will help shape WP beyond Mango and the potential of that is way too big to contemplate here.

But to get there we need to give Elop's Nokia time. nevermind the N9, the Sea Ray prototype shows how far Elop's Nokia have come in the very short time he has had within the company.

to get a new device ready for market usually takes a manufacturer over two years, and Elop's Nokia will have undercut that considerably if they launch in early 2012. If they launch in Oct/Nov they'll become the stuff of legend.

You are right in one sense: Elop will have to destroy the old for the new to flourish. The message has to be clear: Windows Phone is Nokia's future. If that means being seen to kill off Symbian and Meego, then that is a risk worth taking.

But we should also remember that nothing is truly 'killed off'; Meego still exists and despite Elop's words will remain an option for Nokia's future.

I hope so, because from what I've seen so far, and my time with the N900 I bloody love it

If that is the case why did Elop allow such an impressive Meego device in the form of the N9 to be released to the market if he wants to destroy it? Why didn't he, has the CEO, insist the swipe UI was kept back for a future (WP7?) device and just release the N9 with the standard meego UI?

It seems to me Elop cannot control his own Nokia developers and his graf about the Nokia meego tablet, along with other commnets in the past, suggests he doesn't really know what is going on at Nokia, outside his own WP7 world.
 
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volt is offline volt
2011-07-06 , 13:24
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#24
Originally Posted by droitwichgas View Post

It seems to me Elop cannot control his own Nokia developers and his graf about the Nokia meego tablet, along with other commnets in the past, suggests he doesn't really know what is going on at Nokia, outside his own WP7 world.
We already know he can't control his developers. In addition to firing a whole lot of them, selling out departments with some of them, a whole lot of them have quit this year. Including some of the most profiled, most dynamic key personnel doers Nokia had. Oh, and when he announced the new strategy, thousands of Nokia employees took a day off in silent protest. No, Elop has no control over his Nokia developers. Because he doesn't own their loyalty.


That said, it's not likely he's a trojan horse. He's a product of his background... He believes in Microsoft.
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Last edited by volt; 2011-07-06 at 13:27.
 

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NokTokDaddy is offline NokTokDaddy
2011-07-06 , 14:10
Posts: 248 | Thanked: 240 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ Wiltshire, UK
#25
Originally Posted by droitwichgas View Post
If that is the case why did Elop allow such an impressive Meego device in the form of the N9 to be released to the market if he wants to destroy it? Why didn't he, has the CEO, insist the swipe UI was kept back for a future (WP7?) device and just release the N9 with the standard meego UI?

It seems to me Elop cannot control his own Nokia developers and his graf about the Nokia meego tablet, along with other commnets in the past, suggests he doesn't really know what is going on at Nokia, outside his own WP7 world.
I don't think he does want to destroy Meego, but I do think he wants to keep all eyes focussed on WP, for now, at least.

Whatever you think of Elop, he's got the industry by the balls at the moment and they are forced to look him in the eyes.

Whilst he had their undivided attention he then strongly hinted that elements of what we see on N9 will be included on other Nokia devices. You can read into that what you will, but I wouldn't rule out Symbian, Meego/Maemo, S40 or even Windows Phone.

Consider that little white arrow on WP: how much better would it be to replace that with the swiping gesture of the N9?

And if you consider how WP currently works - side-sliding between the home screen and apps list. M/H on the N9 could almost be regarded as a development of the Metro UI.

You may well be right about Elop not having control over his developers for all I know. Maybe that's why he packed many of them off with the Accenture deal, who knows?
 
gruik is offline gruik
2011-07-06 , 14:21
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#26
It's the first time I see a CEO treated like this...
 
NokTokDaddy is offline NokTokDaddy
2011-07-06 , 14:51
Posts: 248 | Thanked: 240 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ Wiltshire, UK
#27
Originally Posted by volt View Post

That's how you evaluate Elops leadership. Traders believe that Nokia now isn't even worth what they own. Even when everybody thought Symbian was a sinking boat and Nokia refused to see it, they still believed Nokia had a brighter future than they do now that Nokia has displayed their new course. Even when Nokia cut costs and got rid of thousands of employees, cynical economists didn't think it would improve Nokias outlook.

Why not? Because everybody could see that Nokia could have milked Symbian for several more years. That's billions of dollars that Nokia basically turned their back to. While they still were selling billions of Symbian phones, they could have spent a billion dollar on building or buying a new OS for their phones. Instead they said 'we are too slow and stupid, we give up, also Symbian really suck'.
I don't think Nokia's Board agree with you, and they have access to more data and detail than we do.

Nor did they hire Elop as a patch to prop Nokia up in the short-term - they could've easily done this themselves under OPK.

But they didn't.

Nokia failed to do all they could (and should) have done to keep Symbian competitive as iOS and Android and all we can conclude is that the Board agreed that it was time to jump platforms.

Do we really think anyone could go in to Nokia - one of the most staid and institutionalised manufacturers in the world, and tried (again) to succeed with the same team to achieve what they had already failed to realise?

Do you really think anyone at Nokia would take any new CEO as radical as Elop seriously - whatever plan he/she had?

I've never worked at anywhere near the level that Elop works, but as a Manager in the past I know from bitter experience you have to get in and become Master straight away - or you're screwed.

Respect from an existing workforce is not something that is earnt in a gentlemany way - it has to be fought for to be won. Only when you have a team around you who are loyal and fully trusting of you can you begin to make progress, so I'm not all surprised Elop either fired or sold off large parts of the existing team - he'd never have gotten anywhere with them still in place because they were (reportedly) so entrenched in their ways.

The very fact that so many staged a silent protest by staying off work underlines this arrogance with Nokia.

If you really think anyone could turn a company like Nokia round in a few short months with no cost in the short-term you need to re-examine the position they were in, re-consider the balance of power extant within Nokia prior to all this and take into account how unpredictable this market is.

No-one predicted Android would be as successful as it is, especially at the low-end of the market. Here in the UK we have fully-featured devices from Huawei and ZTE selling off-contract for as little as £40 - these are killing Symbian far more than Elop is because the average man on the street knows next-to-nothing about Stephen Elop, February 11th or the N9.

And now Elop is criticised for responding to market forces by cutting Symbian device prices!

I don't know whether Elop's gamble will pay off for Nokia - NONE of us do.

But I am prepared to give him a chance to prove himself. By the look of it, the Nokia Board are giving him their backing as well.

Like I said, we need to get to the end of 2012 before we can fully judge this. Of course Traders will be talking down Nokia stock - how on earth could they do otherwise?

However, it is interesting to note the 'blip' in Nokia stock following the N9 announcement - maybe Elop should be blamed for this good news as well as all the bad, eh?

We're all pissed because Elop has spoilt our plans for an N900 replacement (me included). Nokia employees are pissed because they're now either fearing for their jobs or because the new guy at the top is threatening the life they have come to know and enjoy. Shareholders are pissed because they're seeing their stock devalued, but this is all inevitable if Nokia are to survive at all.
 

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volt is offline volt
2011-07-06 , 15:47
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#28
As it is, Nokia is not going to survive till winter unless the stock prices stop dropping NOW.

However, investors will need to see something they believe in before that. That will happen at earliest when the first positive Windows 7.5 Phone sales numbers are out.
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bandora is offline bandora
2011-07-06 , 15:53
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#29
What I don't understand is that the N9 is a great phone for consumers and he doesn't want it to catch on and become popular! My girlfriend the other day told me there's a "new phone" called the N9 and I listened to her talking about it for like 10 minutes on how cute the "pink" one is and how awesome it looks like (UI).. And not trying to sound like an a**hole but she's pretty naive when it comes to any kind of electronics/technologies. What I'm trying to say is that MeeGo is appealing to devs and power users and also those "regular" consumers! But somehow they (Nokia/Board Members/Elop) don't want that continue!
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volt is offline volt
2011-07-06 , 16:00
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#30
While the N9 might just be a hit phone given the right attention, there's a lot more at stake for Nokia right now than getting a single hit. They're dedicated to a new Windows strategy, and have everything riding at that. A N9/MeeGo success will only distract from that strategy, and might even hurt it. And while hurting it, the success cannot possibly be so huge that it forces a whole new strategy.

But many of us would have wished for that, eh?
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