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2010-06-14
, 10:07
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Posts: 186 |
Thanked: 192 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ Finland
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#22
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Originally Posted by evad
My thoughts exactly. Nokia now has a problem with both amount and quality of content in Ovi. So why would they not just start picking apps from extras, doing their own QA, heck, even contribute back to original projects? Maybe work with the community developers, or offer bounties for fixing issues, in order to get more Ovi-qualified apps.
So the process might look like: devel -> testing -> extras -> ovi, with more paid and dedicated QA testers (probably directly from Ovi) involved in the process. They could hand-pick apps from testing repo and help promote/demote in order to get ball rolling much quicker.
Even if such a level of interacting with the community is beyond practical, they could just take and fork some projects. I guess most apps in extras are licensed in a way which allows that.
On completely different subject that is mentioned above, the ability for widgets to anonymously cause breakage:
I think this issue should be solved architecturally, by making each of these widgets run in their own process, so they could be blamed for their resource usage without bringing out serious debugging tools. The current model where blame goes to the stock system software helps neither Nokia nor the widget developer to find and fix actual problems.
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2010-06-14
, 10:27
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Posts: 1,259 |
Thanked: 1,341 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Germany
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#23
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Originally Posted by qgil
The big benefit at the community Extras are the QA process. And I can install the applications directly on the device. No need to visit a mostly not working website.
- Having Extras enabled out of the box has put more pressure in the community QA process, that several times has been criticized as too heavy.
I can't see anything like the Extras QT process at the official and Nokia own ovi store. They are not only selling expensive and not supported MMS messages to the N900 users (at a time nobody has ever seen a announcement of fMMS), they have not optified, not well tested applications in the store and the support does not work.
At example Cube Touch from Offscreen. Aviable since last year with a Bug in the application that it makes impossible to resolve this puzzle. And additionally the Application crashes very often.
Many times reported, per Mail, here at talk and in the comments at the store... but it is not fixed, no official statement, no update and the application is still in the store. Nobody has considered to remove it I guess.
The complete QA prozess is hidden or simply not existing. At maemo Extras we have a working QA process, I can search for problems in the past, who has voted for the package. Who is the programmer, what dependencies are there. Are there still not fixed reports at the Bug Tracker.
I don't have this at OVI. And there are many reasons in the past to don't trust applications from ovi!
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2010-06-14
, 10:36
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Posts: 2,829 |
Thanked: 1,459 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Finland
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#25
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dneary,
You probably realize that Apples walled garden and Androids environment for apps has one big advantage. Itīs stability. And IMO it actually could be the most important thing of all. To have sandbox where you can run apps and main OS keeps on going even thought apps brake is quite big thing when we are talking about end user experience. One broken app might affect the whole quality of all apps and main platform.
And about expectations. I think that itīs quite hard to say how people see responsibility when installing apps. I can only speak about some conversations in TMO where some users that have installed stuff from extras and end up with sluggish performance and blaim Nokia for bad OS. Not app developers just Nokia. For some people it even might be hard to even notice that slowness/buginess of main OS etc. is related to app what they installed one week ago.
Maemo and meego give developers full access to almost anything on your device. User has full responsibility of their handheld device. So how could you teach users that they are responsible for all action what they do? Not application store owner or devices manufacturer. Remember that we are not talking about computers here. Comparing to other handheld devices only. So actually we should have much much stricter and throughout QA than android or apple because on this platform apps have pretty much open playground.
You are right about that if search & ratings interfaces are good and they could actually IMO seen as outmost ring in whole QA process. I really hope that Nokia and also maemo.org's community are able to establish system to end users that is easy to use and effective. In this context all that matters is how many taps
. Also feedback from bugs straight from apps and user approved anonymous statistics are important building blocks of good QA for apps and system. Still I feel bit uneasy about this when I think that you and I and probably most of TMO users represent power users who deep down really understand quite much about computers and have probably friends who are technologically literated. Iīm just trying to put myself in pants of my friends who have trouble even installing autorun windows games but still use quite a much money on phones/smartphones/mobile internet devices and represent IMO the main market of upcoming devices.
Last edited by slender; 2010-06-14 at 13:06.
You probably realize that Apples walled garden and Androids environment for apps has one big advantage. Itīs stability. And IMO it actually could be the most important thing of all. To have sandbox where you can run apps and main OS keeps on going even thought apps brake is quite big thing when we are talking about end user experience. One broken app might affect the whole quality of all apps and main platform.
And about expectations. I think that itīs quite hard to say how people see responsibility when installing apps. I can only speak about some conversations in TMO where some users that have installed stuff from extras and end up with sluggish performance and blaim Nokia for bad OS. Not app developers just Nokia. For some people it even might be hard to even notice that slowness/buginess of main OS etc. is related to app what they installed one week ago.
Maemo and meego give developers full access to almost anything on your device. User has full responsibility of their handheld device. So how could you teach users that they are responsible for all action what they do? Not application store owner or devices manufacturer. Remember that we are not talking about computers here. Comparing to other handheld devices only. So actually we should have much much stricter and throughout QA than android or apple because on this platform apps have pretty much open playground.
You are right about that if search & ratings interfaces are good and they could actually IMO seen as outmost ring in whole QA process. I really hope that Nokia and also maemo.org's community are able to establish system to end users that is easy to use and effective. In this context all that matters is how many taps
. Also feedback from bugs straight from apps and user approved anonymous statistics are important building blocks of good QA for apps and system. Still I feel bit uneasy about this when I think that you and I and probably most of TMO users represent power users who deep down really understand quite much about computers and have probably friends who are technologically literated. Iīm just trying to put myself in pants of my friends who have trouble even installing autorun windows games but still use quite a much money on phones/smartphones/mobile internet devices and represent IMO the main market of upcoming devices.
Last edited by slender; 2010-06-14 at 13:06.
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2010-06-14
, 12:58
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Posts: 2,869 |
Thanked: 1,784 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Po' Bo'. PA
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#26
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Originally Posted by qgil
We should also be careful for what we wish for...
Well, yes you are.
I'm playing evil's advocate in this Sunday night (in fact Monday here now) as a community member reminding the extra hassle this Extras-enabled-by-default has caused to the community in the form of extra pressure from Nokia. If the posts here reflect the sentiment of the community then this is useful information.
Nokia sees Extras as a benefit more than a worry. This is why it's enabled by default in Maemo 5 (it wasn't before), this is why the MeeGo-Harmattan application manager and security framework know about its existence and this is why we have been pushing the Extras concept (community QA included) to the MeeGo project.
The "just a headache" goes more for the community than for Nokia. I haven't heard anybody at Nokia questioning the current setup, and I will ask about feelings and current situation for MeeGo-Harmattan.
If you think the collateral headaches of being enabled by default are worth considering the benefits then, as said, this is useful information.
I fear the pressure on this community to provide what is essentially Nokia's burden in customer support if community "Extras" are enabled by default.
The question here after the N900's release has been:
"Why do the passengers on the bus of complaints all seemed to disembark in our small town instead of continuing on to Espoo?"
"Extras", and more specifically the communication tools this community provides via this forum may be the reason.
I think that before answering this question, the question back to Nokia should be:
"Does Nokia intend to provide at least the same level of support for "OVI" apps as this community provides for its "Extras" repository?"
If the answer from Nokia is to provide the same level of support for "OVI" apps as it currently provides, then that would be the "insult" to this community.
Last edited by YoDude; 2010-06-14 at 13:12. Reason: Appropriately named "Espoo Blues" image added
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2010-06-14
, 13:15
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Posts: 1,885 |
Thanked: 2,008 times |
Joined on Aug 2009
@ OVI MAPS
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#27
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what people are forgetting is Ovi store is already a success if you minus the Maemo version, they get over a 1.5 million downloads a day.
I'm pretty sure Nokia will put in a massive amount of money and other resource's for MeeGo version of the store now the MeeGo platform will target a much different and bigger user base.
I'd be happy with a bookmark to Extra's Download Page on MeeGo devices, then if people see something they like they will click download link and Repo will be configured and added automatically with no hassle.
I'm pretty sure Nokia will put in a massive amount of money and other resource's for MeeGo version of the store now the MeeGo platform will target a much different and bigger user base.
I'd be happy with a bookmark to Extra's Download Page on MeeGo devices, then if people see something they like they will click download link and Repo will be configured and added automatically with no hassle.
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2010-06-14
, 13:45
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Posts: 1,391 |
Thanked: 4,272 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ Vienna, Austria
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#28
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As an application developer making heavy use of Extras, I really hope that Extras will be enabled on the devices by default. Several really usable applications are available from Extras. If quality is a problem, we can always modify the "rules" of the Extras QA process (more than 10 votes, stricter rules, etc..).
As already pointed out several times in this thread, right now the Extras QA process seems to yield better and more stable apps than what comes out from the Ovi QA process at the moment. The process is also more transparent and easy to grasp for developers. Shortcomings of the process can be fixed by modifying the "rules" - we can't really do much about the shortcomings of Ovi until Nokia decides they want to change something (and we don't really want to wait until that happens?).
If you are not going to enable Extras by default, please make sure that Ovi Store is on par with Extras feature-wise. This means support for Python applications (PySide, PyGame, ...), SDL games (+OpenGL ES 1.1 games that don't make use of Qt) and everything else that's not built with The One True Toolkit in The One True Language using only The One True API (AFAIK Ovi only supports Qt apps written in C++, and no other APIs than Qt Mobility + whatever "stock" Qt offers).
Isn't the community-driven Extras repository something that positively distinguishes the Maemo platform from the rest? If so, why *wouldn't* you want to enable it out of the box?
As already pointed out several times in this thread, right now the Extras QA process seems to yield better and more stable apps than what comes out from the Ovi QA process at the moment. The process is also more transparent and easy to grasp for developers. Shortcomings of the process can be fixed by modifying the "rules" - we can't really do much about the shortcomings of Ovi until Nokia decides they want to change something (and we don't really want to wait until that happens?).
If you are not going to enable Extras by default, please make sure that Ovi Store is on par with Extras feature-wise. This means support for Python applications (PySide, PyGame, ...), SDL games (+OpenGL ES 1.1 games that don't make use of Qt) and everything else that's not built with The One True Toolkit in The One True Language using only The One True API (AFAIK Ovi only supports Qt apps written in C++, and no other APIs than Qt Mobility + whatever "stock" Qt offers).
Isn't the community-driven Extras repository something that positively distinguishes the Maemo platform from the rest? If so, why *wouldn't* you want to enable it out of the box?
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2010-06-14
, 14:10
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Posts: 968 |
Thanked: 974 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
@ Ohio
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#29
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If MeeGo-Harmattan is really expected to be mainstream (not just another beta step), then Nokia should be asking themselves about the benefit of Extras being enabled.
I suspect the most immediate benefit is having a large amount of apps available very quickly after launch. I also suspect that community resources may be quickly overwhelmed by testing requirements. Particularly in the case of few devices being available for testing prior to launch, or a slow to start developer program.
So, I would suggest that it would be in Nokias best interest to have a couple (or more) paid tester positions prior to launch and for sometime afterward to help the community test and promote quality apps quickly.
If that isn't economically feasible (beneficial), perhaps Nokia could implement a programmers discount system. Reduced cost / streamlined access to a "free" section in the Ovi store for programmers that have shown to be contributing to the community. Make it easy for these folks to get stuff submitted to the Ovi store. Ovi QA would be in place, and Nokia would benefit from having the apps in its store.
I think in the case of a mainstream device, the majority of apps should come from a "sponsored store", not a community supported repo. This would significantly reduce stress on the community. I think most mainstream users would blame Nokia for problems perhaps related to mis-behaving apps anyway, so Nokia should have some control over them.
Extras should contain stuff that Nokia couldn't/shoudn't support in their store (enhanced kernels, emulators, Chromium, etc). In this case, Extras should not be enabled by default, and only enabled with whatever warnings are warranted.
Just my thoughts.
I suspect the most immediate benefit is having a large amount of apps available very quickly after launch. I also suspect that community resources may be quickly overwhelmed by testing requirements. Particularly in the case of few devices being available for testing prior to launch, or a slow to start developer program.
So, I would suggest that it would be in Nokias best interest to have a couple (or more) paid tester positions prior to launch and for sometime afterward to help the community test and promote quality apps quickly.
If that isn't economically feasible (beneficial), perhaps Nokia could implement a programmers discount system. Reduced cost / streamlined access to a "free" section in the Ovi store for programmers that have shown to be contributing to the community. Make it easy for these folks to get stuff submitted to the Ovi store. Ovi QA would be in place, and Nokia would benefit from having the apps in its store.
I think in the case of a mainstream device, the majority of apps should come from a "sponsored store", not a community supported repo. This would significantly reduce stress on the community. I think most mainstream users would blame Nokia for problems perhaps related to mis-behaving apps anyway, so Nokia should have some control over them.
Extras should contain stuff that Nokia couldn't/shoudn't support in their store (enhanced kernels, emulators, Chromium, etc). In this case, Extras should not be enabled by default, and only enabled with whatever warnings are warranted.
Just my thoughts.
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*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
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2010-06-14
, 14:17
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Posts: 2,869 |
Thanked: 1,784 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Po' Bo'. PA
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#30
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Originally Posted by thp
And the only thing I would change is...
As an application developer making heavy use of Extras, I really hope that Extras will be enabled on the devices by default. Several really usable applications are available from Extras. If quality is a problem, we can always modify the "rules" of the Extras QA process (more than 10 votes, stricter rules, etc..).
As already pointed out several times in this thread, right now the Extras QA process seems to yield better and more stable apps than what comes out from the Ovi QA process at the moment. The process is also more transparent and easy to grasp for developers. Shortcomings of the process can be fixed by modifying the "rules" - we can't really do much about the shortcomings of Ovi until Nokia decides they want to change something (and we don't really want to wait until that happens?).
If you are not going to enable Extras by default, please make sure that Ovi Store is on par with Extras feature-wise. This means support for Python applications (PySide, PyGame, ...), SDL games (+OpenGL ES 1.1 games that don't make use of Qt) and everything else that's not built with The One True Toolkit in The One True Language using only The One True API (AFAIK Ovi only supports Qt apps written in C++, and no other APIs than Qt Mobility + whatever "stock" Qt offers).
Isn't the community-driven Extras repository something that positively distinguishes the Maemo platform from the rest? If so, why *wouldn't* you want to enable it out of the box?
...If you are going to enable Extras by default, please make sure that Ovi Store is on par with Extras feature-wise. This means support for Python applications (PySide, PyGame, ...), SDL games (+OpenGL ES 1.1 games that don't make use of Qt) and everything else that's not built with The One True Toolkit in The One True Language using only The One True API (AFAIK Ovi only supports Qt apps written in C++, and no other APIs than Qt Mobility + whatever "stock" Qt offers).
Isn't the community-driven Extras repository something that positively distinguishes the Maemo platform from the rest? If so, why *wouldn't* you want to enable it out of the box?
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| extras, extras-testing, harmattan |
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All times are GMT. The time now is 09:54.
If Nokia is feeling a QA burden, then they should relieve that by realising that device users do not have an expectation of Nokia in the community channel or market. There is no need to impose a QA burden on the community either - the good, useful reliable apps will rise to the top if you get your search & ratings interfaces right.
Cheers,
Dave.