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Mark S is offline Mark S
2007-10-28 , 23:15
Posts: 116 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Mar 2006
#21
The interesting thing to me about these type threads is that people who like the IT's always say how it is so much more than the iphone (i.e., it is a real computer), but then in the other threads when I say where is the citrix, where is the word compatibility, where is the exchange synch, how about printing, etc (and all of this without an MIT degree i computer science), many of the same people say "it is just an internet tablet". Just wait about a month after the iphone developers kit comes out. The iphone will knock the stuffing out of the nokia, and it won't take very long. The iphone is an initial release. You'll see.
 
Wizard69 is offline Wizard69
2007-10-28 , 23:18
Posts: 27 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Oct 2007
#22
Originally Posted by Hedgecore View Post
Don't make me go into another long diatribe comparing the N810 to a brick. It's exactly what you're doing.
No body is making you do anything at all it is all up to you. In any event the N810 has its own issues and can be compared quite negatively against Nokia's own hardware.

Apples products being 'polished' is a matter of preference, nothing more. Their marketing juggernaut has created many zombies who are willing to shell out their hard earned cash on what they are told to like. What they are told is chique. What they are told is good UI.
A lot of the success of the i series hardware is the result of user interface, you simply can't deny that. More so it is the total package of the iPods, Itunes software and the Itunes web site. They work well to deliver a legal music delivery system and people have responded to them.
I think the iPOD has huge design faults from a usability standpoint, whereas they're genius from a marketing standpoint.
Marketing can't be ignored that is for sure. But there are not many design faults that can be considered huge.

A.) The headphones leak horribly. ...
So somebody turns up the music to loud on their head phones and you end up blaming the iPod. Cute man cute.

B.) ... Pull it out and hold it up to your face. Everyone can see you doing it. ...
Probably enjoying cover flow.

... From an objective standpoint, they're horrible.
Obviously you have not looked at one for any length of time. I don't own one, but the appearance of the device would never stop me from buying.

Now, go back to comparing the iPhone to the stylus that came with the 770. I'll get you started. The 770's stylus can't play mp3's and I don't think it was any video codecs either. Clearly the iPhone is better than a stylus. You can also stab yourself in the ear with a stylus when trying to pick up a call whereas with the iPhone all you can do is miss the call because you took so long to pull it out in an obvious fashion so that everyone could see you've got one.
Envy????

Dave
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2007-10-28 , 23:19
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#23
Originally Posted by Wizard69 View Post
My point is that the devices from Nokia need a primary function to make the attractive to those that can't justify some thing like the N series. Everyone has an excuse to carry around a Cell phone for example and a lot of people an MP3 player. Few have the need for a Linux only pocket computer.
Now thats only marketing. You can tell people whatever you want about any product. I'm interested in products, not in marketing.

Originally Posted by Wizard69 View Post
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Which is? I don't know maybe somebody else can fill me in on what you are saying here.
Originally Posted by Wizard69 View Post
Ok I like straight forward, but beyond cover flow what is or are the special effects on a iPhone that bothers you? List boxes get scrolled with a swipe of the finger, a tap at the right place zooms in.
A classical UI is one that tries to be unobtrusive. You need to make a choice? You get a list, pick one, forget the list was even there. A classical UI tries to let you get where you want as quickly as possible, not introducing extra steps just for its own sake. Switching between browser windows the way its done on the iPod touch for meant 5 taps instead of one to return to a certain page. This is cerftainly not "as quickly as possible". Cover flow, dont mention it! The zoom-tap means i constantly have to re-zoom. I hardly ever use zoom on my 770. And so on...
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2007-10-28 , 23:26
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#24
Originally Posted by lavo View Post
Having every option under the sun is heaven for a geek, but for the average schmo on the street it is a living hell.
What exactly is so complicated and overloaded with too many options on a tablet? I see people use it who have no computer knowledge and fail to install software on a windows pc. They can use it without difficulty. - You can get into a lot of trouble on a tablet if you do geek-things with it, but non-geek people stay on the safe side, so theres no problem for them. Trust me, I watch them while they do it.
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2007-10-28 , 23:32
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#25
Originally Posted by Mark S View Post
The iphone will knock the stuffing out of the nokia, and it won't take very long. The iphone is an initial release. You'll see.
With all the negative press the iPhone currently gets (first its lack of essential features, then the lock to a carrier, then the difficulties after the first firmware upgrade, now Apples new ideas about credit card only payment etc.... - and all of this before its even sold!) they sure better come out with something new very soon.

(Oh, before you start to wonder: writing from good old europe here, sure its being sold in the US - dont know how bad the press is there.)
 
Wizard69 is offline Wizard69
2007-10-28 , 23:32
Posts: 27 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Oct 2007
#26
Originally Posted by lavo View Post
BTW, you guys do know there is an SDK coming out for the iPhone/Touch?
Yep but we don't know where Apple is going with this SDK. Frankly they haven't been very up front about development on the iPhone.

I'm holding out hope that open development and software installation will be supported. To be perfectly honest though if Nokia where to deliver the right N series machine before that, I'd be very tempted to go the Nokia route. As it is I'm wondering if Nokia gets it as far as these sorts of devices go.

There are a couple of things that one can bet on with respect to Apple hardware. One is that they will have more storage space in future iterations. The other is the stiff price you have to pay for that technology. Nokia needs to get the issue of storage space resolved soon and I'm not talking about the user upgradeable storage either.

Dave
 
Wizard69 is offline Wizard69
2007-10-28 , 23:44
Posts: 27 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Oct 2007
#27
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
Now thats only marketing. You can tell people whatever you want about any product. I'm interested in products, not in marketing.
Marketing, not really. The question comes down to how many "products" you want to carry around with you. The two big reasons that people in general carry around electronics is to have a cell phone and a MP3 player. Devices that target one or both of those uses and can function as an internet access devices will always have an advantage over a simple internet tablet.

It has nothing at all to do with marketing. It is simply an issue of what is acceptable to the population at large as far as carrying devices on their person.


A classical UI is one that tries to be unobtrusive. You need to make a choice? You get a list, pick one, forget the list was even there. A classical UI tries to let you get where you want as quickly as possible, not introducing extra steps just for its own sake. Switching between browser windows the way its done on the iPod touch for meant 5 taps instead of one to return to a certain page. This is cerftainly not "as quickly as possible".
You do realize that this is a portable device with a limited resolution screen right?
Cover flow, dont mention it!
I guess you won't like the latest version of OS/X then. The concept is used extensively and from what I hear works the nuts for some things.
The zoom-tap means i constantly have to re-zoom. I hardly ever use zoom on my 770. And so on...
Yes and the 770 has a higher resolution screen if I recall correctly. Low resolution implies zooming and scrolling, there is no way to get around that.

Dave
 
Wizard69 is offline Wizard69
2007-10-28 , 23:57
Posts: 27 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Oct 2007
#28
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
With all the negative press the iPhone currently gets (first its lack of essential features, then the lock to a carrier, then the difficulties after the first firmware upgrade, now Apples new ideas about credit card only payment etc.... - and all of this before its even sold!) they sure better come out with something new very soon.
The iPhone is the first device that got me interested din the idea of a portable device that can access the internet. However it does seem like Apple has done everything in their power to convince me not to buy from them. Still they seem to be selling a lot of product.

So now that I have this interest their is the need to find a product that fills my needs and doesn't involve a MS operating system. It is harder than I thought to find a substitute for the iPhone even with all of its short comings.

(Oh, before you start to wonder: writing from good old europe here, sure its being sold in the US - dont know how bad the press is there.)
Interestingly I'd say the press is balanced. The problem is that Apple has been very successful lately, so you have to be real specific in your complaints about the company to be taken seriously.

All in all it looks like the Iphone may be a bigger success than Apple had anticipated. It is certainly a surprise to me given the devices limitations. But it goes back to my statements earlier about primary usages and doing a few things well.

Dave
 
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krisse is offline krisse
2007-10-29 , 00:14
Posts: 1,540 | Thanked: 1,045 times | Joined on Feb 2007
#29
Apple has released one phone model aimed at one niche in one part of the world. If you plough all your resources into one model, yes, it's likely to be impressive to its target audience. But how would Apple cope if they had to design, test, manufacture and distribute dozens of radically different models to radically different audiences, and do that every year, year after year, to all markets all over the world, and provide technical support (including spare parts etc) for 1 - 2 years for all these different models?

I'm not saying they can't do it, I'm just saying that they haven't even tried to do it yet, and they have absolutely no track record of doing it. They're not a mass market company on a global scale, they're a niche company.


Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
("You dont need to customize, everythings perfect", he said. Well, not for me.)
That's a recipe for a low-sales niche product if they think it's perfect.

Trying to sell a "perfect" phone only works if you have a very limited audience, which is what Apple has right now, and is probably what Apple will aim for in the future.

By far the most common phone sold is a low-budget low-profit $30 or $40 model that just does calls, largely due to the massive growth of mobile phone networks in the developing world. Unless Apple announces a $40 device (and that's $40 unlocked with no contract or subsidy) they have NO chance of taking a significant market share in the phone world. It would be like a supermarket trying to take significant market share while refusing to stock bread or milk.

The fundamental point about the phone industry is that it has to serve a far more diverse range of customers than any other electronic device.

Over 1 billion phones were sold in the past year, that's a vast, huge number, especially when you add it to the phones already sold before that. Nokia alone releases something like 40 or 50 different models a year, from a $10,000 Vertu made of gold right the way down to a $30 no-frills phone. Even when they're the same price, phones vary hugely in features and appearance: a delicate $300 fashion phone is no substitute for a rugged $300 waterproof phone for example.

There can't possibly be a perfect phone just like there can't possibly be a perfect car or a perfect meal or a perfect item of clothing: tastes and needs and fashions and budgets are way too varied when you start talking about products used by literally billions of people.

Being a successful phone maker is like running a large movie studio. One hit isn't enough, one genre isn't enough, you have to have a string of hits across a range of genres.
Last edited by krisse; 2007-10-29 at 00:37.
 
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johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2007-10-29 , 01:21
Posts: 1,878 | Thanked: 646 times | Joined on Sep 2007 @ San Jose, CA
#30
Originally Posted by lavo View Post
BTW, you guys do know there is an SDK coming out for the iPhone/Touch?
How constrained will it be?

Will I be able to develop in Java? Python? Perl? C? Or will I only be able to develop in Obj-C? (not that I'm knocking Obj-C ... MUCH better choice than C++, but still, point is, Apple doesn't tend to give choices)

Will I be able to distribute any app I want to, or will it have to be approved by Apple? And what things will they restrict in this regard?

And, why are they making everyone wait until next year for it?

Frankly, the iPhone SDK announcement was too little too late. They missed the boat.
 
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