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| The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Texrat For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-01-11
, 20:04
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Posts: 600 |
Thanked: 742 times |
Joined on Sep 2008
@ England
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#22
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Another thing to remember is that a successful product will have vibrant sub-communities springing up in all over the place, not just in the "official vendor-supported place".
For example the iPhone has a passionate photo-oriented community at Flickr, totally unrelated to the sub-communities that are involved with iPhone music or iPhone applications.
For a product with open sourced software, the diversification should be even greater.
Roger.
For example the iPhone has a passionate photo-oriented community at Flickr, totally unrelated to the sub-communities that are involved with iPhone music or iPhone applications.
For a product with open sourced software, the diversification should be even greater.
Roger.
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2009-01-11
, 20:08
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#23
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Originally Posted by eiffel
Agreed, but as I'm sure you and most others here are already aware the internet tablets are in an awkward spot: mostly open source software with somewhat open source hardware. They're treading a fine line between open and closed that is largely unprecedented. That's why IMO corporate guidance and support is the most important aspect of the device platform's and OS platform's successes (they can be so independently).
Another thing to remember is that a successful product will have vibrant sub-communities springing up in all over the place, not just in the "official vendor-supported place".
For example the iPhone has a passionate photo-oriented community at Flickr, totally unrelated to the sub-communities that are involved with iPhone music or iPhone applications.
For a product with open sourced software, the diversification should be even greater.
Roger.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2009-01-11
, 22:58
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#24
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Texrat, my comments are not personally on you. I always wonder what is this language that has the same word for you-singular and you-plural. The thread started with your quote just because you raised a good point about community projects having plenty of gaps and overlaps, and how to manage that.
This is a topic widely discussed in umbrella communities with no corporate presence where it is easy to get gaps, overlaps and not the best coordination. Here the debate about what the own community can improve hasn't started since you seem to want to discuss first the role and responsability of Nokia.
Well, maybe it's a fair point.
Hardware plans are important to grow a vibrant mobile community nowadays. True. Maemo talks about hardware from a software perspective, certainly more useful for developers than for gadget scoop hunters.
Developers can get a good idea after the OSiM/Summit announcements last September and the Fremantle pre-alpha released in December. There are a couple of threads here and a couple of posts in Planet Maemo with plenty of data. We have said that the trend is going mass-market and we have said that 'Internet Tablet' is not a label we see living much longer.
Should we stress more all this stuff that is known and is coming? Should we stir more discussion about new use cases, potential evolution of applications, areas where third parties could bring more features? Would this help to the cohesion of the community and its vibes?
What else can we do? What would be your concrete and specific
This is a topic widely discussed in umbrella communities with no corporate presence where it is easy to get gaps, overlaps and not the best coordination. Here the debate about what the own community can improve hasn't started since you seem to want to discuss first the role and responsability of Nokia.
Well, maybe it's a fair point.
Hardware plans are important to grow a vibrant mobile community nowadays. True. Maemo talks about hardware from a software perspective, certainly more useful for developers than for gadget scoop hunters.
Developers can get a good idea after the OSiM/Summit announcements last September and the Fremantle pre-alpha released in December. There are a couple of threads here and a couple of posts in Planet Maemo with plenty of data. We have said that the trend is going mass-market and we have said that 'Internet Tablet' is not a label we see living much longer.
Should we stress more all this stuff that is known and is coming? Should we stir more discussion about new use cases, potential evolution of applications, areas where third parties could bring more features? Would this help to the cohesion of the community and its vibes?
What else can we do? What would be your concrete and specific
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2009-01-11
, 23:21
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Posts: 2,102 |
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Joined on Sep 2006
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#25
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Should we stir more discussion about new use cases, potential evolution of applications, areas where third parties could bring more features? Would this help to the cohesion of the community and its vibes?
On the other hand, things like the feed browser, etc. are applications that could be worked upon now. From your previous thread, Quim, it appears that you'd like the community to do some work on this (which is fine, I think we should), which I presume means that any work we do won't be wasted (i.e. there isn't a Fremantle version being prepared right now which will make any work done on the current one redundant).
That last point, about work becoming redundant is a real problem, people are less inclined to do work on things that may be replaced.
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2009-01-11
, 23:29
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Posts: 356 |
Thanked: 231 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#26
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Originally Posted by qgil
Yes. Choose one facet of upcoming features if you don't want to disclose everything. The best element would be something which will be most likely changing in upcoming months so each few weeks you could show something new.
Should we stress more all this stuff that is known and is coming? Should we stir more discussion about new use cases, potential evolution of applications, areas where third parties could bring more features? Would this help to the cohesion of the community and its vibes?
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2009-01-12
, 00:23
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#27
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I would have to put some more thoughts into specifics, since as I acknowledged I have been generalizing at a high level. I think there are many areas that need to be tackled so I will think about fundamentals some more. I will probably post further thoughts on my blog and link back here.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2009-01-12
, 02:04
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Posts: 3,397 |
Thanked: 1,212 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Netherlands
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#28
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Expressing criticism is easy especially when it is concerning another persons work. I understand criticism is difficult, especially when you know arguments are sound or completely wrong but you are not allowed to say for benefit of all who are involved. Also I understand you feel people spend time wrong.
However, sometimes there is a lot of talking before walking. Some individuals are like that, and some sound decisions are made this way. In the end, we all want common, abstract results such are happiness. If you don't wish to listen to arguments made in discussions, so be it. I sometimes notice bright insights in such discussions though, and others are doing what they're good at as well and sharing this e.g. on UI aspects.
You must also understand some people want certain features in their next device, and because there are disagreements about this rest assured you will pull and push different individuals and groups with the next Maemo release and the next tablet release. Some of people are now indifferent. Others are disgruntled with what they know. Yet others are excited with the information they have. This is normal. We have to accept this. By sharing more information you can create clarity or vagueness. Shadows and riddles can create excitement, but as it seems now, for some its not the right way to tickle them because they're not sure about the new way Nokia is heading at all.
qgil you said elsewhere, addressing readers, if you were excited about Nokia 770 -> Nokia N800 and Nokia N800 -> Nokia N810 you will be excited about the new device. While this holds truth for sure, some people experienced sour aspects of these transitions, and generally speaking every change has its positive and negative aspects.
Lets outline what users can do and where they should head to for what. If some kind of cohesive organisation develops thats great. There are other tasks than bug reporting...
Personally, I tried to contribute to the wiki today, but not much happened (also had to do some house cleaning and such.. and this snow..). For example, when I wade through the old ItT wiki I see a lot of information, but a lot I never experienced (Nokia 770/Nokia N800) so I don't know what is important and what isn't (anymore) so it is difficult for me to understand this let alone export this to Maemo wiki.
However, sometimes there is a lot of talking before walking. Some individuals are like that, and some sound decisions are made this way. In the end, we all want common, abstract results such are happiness. If you don't wish to listen to arguments made in discussions, so be it. I sometimes notice bright insights in such discussions though, and others are doing what they're good at as well and sharing this e.g. on UI aspects.
You must also understand some people want certain features in their next device, and because there are disagreements about this rest assured you will pull and push different individuals and groups with the next Maemo release and the next tablet release. Some of people are now indifferent. Others are disgruntled with what they know. Yet others are excited with the information they have. This is normal. We have to accept this. By sharing more information you can create clarity or vagueness. Shadows and riddles can create excitement, but as it seems now, for some its not the right way to tickle them because they're not sure about the new way Nokia is heading at all.
qgil you said elsewhere, addressing readers, if you were excited about Nokia 770 -> Nokia N800 and Nokia N800 -> Nokia N810 you will be excited about the new device. While this holds truth for sure, some people experienced sour aspects of these transitions, and generally speaking every change has its positive and negative aspects.
Lets outline what users can do and where they should head to for what. If some kind of cohesive organisation develops thats great. There are other tasks than bug reporting...
Personally, I tried to contribute to the wiki today, but not much happened (also had to do some house cleaning and such.. and this snow..). For example, when I wade through the old ItT wiki I see a lot of information, but a lot I never experienced (Nokia 770/Nokia N800) so I don't know what is important and what isn't (anymore) so it is difficult for me to understand this let alone export this to Maemo wiki.
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Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
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2009-01-12
, 02:11
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Moderator |
Posts: 7,109 |
Thanked: 8,820 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Vancouver, BC, Canada
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#29
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I wish I could pinpoint what exactly it was; I really can't tell you what the problem was.
All I know is that since the high-water mark that was the Summit, I've crashed into a real despair about Maemo and the future of this community.
Perhaps part of the problem is that I just don't see the rewards that fms is talking about coming to developers that I really respect in this community. I can't really elaborate much on this, since this is just a feeling I get from some private discussions.
Perhaps a big part of the problem is that we're in a real state of limbo right now.
Developers don't want to waste huge amounts of effort developing for the current platform right now with all of the talk about the new platform coming in a few months, and, in the meantime, we're being encouraged from all sides to join in the Mer project, which I think is honourable, but completely uninteresting for me. Some people get a great kick out of reverse engineering and building replacement products; however, I have no interest in re-inventing the wheel. I want to work on projects that leverage the existing infrastructure to do cool new things.
But there are serious problems in the areas I'm interested in.
Just one example: The kernel is broken when it comes to recording audio and video, so all my ventures along this line have come to dead ends. Sure you can patch the kernel, but the next SSU overwrites your patch and you're back where you started.
All I know is that since the high-water mark that was the Summit, I've crashed into a real despair about Maemo and the future of this community.
Perhaps part of the problem is that I just don't see the rewards that fms is talking about coming to developers that I really respect in this community. I can't really elaborate much on this, since this is just a feeling I get from some private discussions.
Perhaps a big part of the problem is that we're in a real state of limbo right now.
Developers don't want to waste huge amounts of effort developing for the current platform right now with all of the talk about the new platform coming in a few months, and, in the meantime, we're being encouraged from all sides to join in the Mer project, which I think is honourable, but completely uninteresting for me. Some people get a great kick out of reverse engineering and building replacement products; however, I have no interest in re-inventing the wheel. I want to work on projects that leverage the existing infrastructure to do cool new things.
But there are serious problems in the areas I'm interested in.
Just one example: The kernel is broken when it comes to recording audio and video, so all my ventures along this line have come to dead ends. Sure you can patch the kernel, but the next SSU overwrites your patch and you're back where you started.
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Please don't send me a private message, post to the appropriate thread.
Thank you all for your donations!
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2009-01-12
, 02:48
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Posts: 1,562 |
Thanked: 349 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
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#30
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Texrat, when you talk about hardware uncertainty, are you talking about the rapid pace of obsolesce right now? I've been seeing that too, but then again, it's not at all unexpected. Especially since we're nearing the top arc of a tech boom period. It goes in cycles and has since the first steam engine, although the peaks and valleys are getting slightly closer together as time progresses.
This upswing should petter out in the next year or two as people grow tired of the overly rapid change of things, and we'll soon settle into more moderate changes in hardware. Things like point oh releases instead of full versions, to use software versioning for my example. So for example, once the speed of improvement slows again as it did around 2000, devices like the n810 would no longer become superseded within 9 months to 2 years by a new product. Instead you'd have things where the n810 would become the N810a with a few minor improvements, but still sold as the n810, and it would remain an active product for the better part of 3-5 years rather than 9-24 months.
I think that when the rate of hardware change slows again here soon, and people have time to catch their breath, volunteer work will pick up again, because, like myself and thousands of others, we don't like to spend countless hours on something, only to find out it's going to be obsolesced tomorrow. So a lot of people are skittish about hardware right now because it's obsolescing so fast. Of course, in the MID and IT markets, you almost have to right now until the MIDs/ITs get to a settling point, likely somewhere in the area the rumored n900 will rest.
With Maemo 5, and the n900, things should settle down for a while with the Nokia NITs and after it does, you should see things pick up again on the community side.
This upswing should petter out in the next year or two as people grow tired of the overly rapid change of things, and we'll soon settle into more moderate changes in hardware. Things like point oh releases instead of full versions, to use software versioning for my example. So for example, once the speed of improvement slows again as it did around 2000, devices like the n810 would no longer become superseded within 9 months to 2 years by a new product. Instead you'd have things where the n810 would become the N810a with a few minor improvements, but still sold as the n810, and it would remain an active product for the better part of 3-5 years rather than 9-24 months.
I think that when the rate of hardware change slows again here soon, and people have time to catch their breath, volunteer work will pick up again, because, like myself and thousands of others, we don't like to spend countless hours on something, only to find out it's going to be obsolesced tomorrow. So a lot of people are skittish about hardware right now because it's obsolescing so fast. Of course, in the MID and IT markets, you almost have to right now until the MIDs/ITs get to a settling point, likely somewhere in the area the rumored n900 will rest.
With Maemo 5, and the n900, things should settle down for a while with the Nokia NITs and after it does, you should see things pick up again on the community side.
And Quim extracted only half of my complaint in order to peel off this separate discussion but I take exception to that: I see the two (hardware and community software) as intertwined.
Back to fms' point about motivation: I suspect the uncertainty about hardware may be contributing to the current state of community development. I see a lot more doubt and cynicism where I used to see eagerness and optimism. Granted, there are those who will point to the Newtons and Palms that enjoyed long post-production lives but how big were the communities and more importantly, the general user bases?
The tablets still have yet to make the mainstream to the extent that other products have. Nokia's official line is that step 5 will do it-- but even there the focus is on future hardware. Yes, there will be software advents with Fremantle and Harmattan but I daresay if you stuck Diablo on faster iron that would go 80% of the way to satisfying user needs.
Anyway I have not yet had morning coffee and I realize I may be largely incoherent so I'll stop here for now.
EDIT: ok, coffeed up and ready to go!
I guess I need to make something perfectly clear, especially to Quim:
When I engage in this sort of discussion, it is often in one of the following roles: product advocate, idea stimulator, discussion facilitator or devil's advocate. Sometimes all of the above. This is what I mean by "talking can BE doing". Conversations need to be directed and prodded (although certainly not controlled). That is how I have mostly seen my role here.
Quim, you have a tendency to downplay my involvement with the tablets but the fact is I was highly instrumental in the successful US launch of the N800 and a very important reason why initial quality was as good as it was out the door (I would love to fill you in on details if I have not already). That's not said just to brag-- I am pointing out why I feel confident to self-describe myself as an authority of sorts. Plus, I do have considerable experience as a facilitator in general and enjoy the role of challenging assumptions, asking stimulating questions and drawing out great ideas.
So yeah... in my case, talking IS doing. That's my skill.
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Last edited by Texrat; 2009-01-11 at 18:20.