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| The Following User Says Thank You to Sasler For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-10-23
, 17:02
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Posts: 3,397 |
Thanked: 1,212 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Netherlands
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#22
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Oh sorry, that was not my intention. Although you kinda prove your own point 
sometimes it is not required to understand everything written in post.
I'll clarify by first quote and then provide clarification. The relevant parts I'll put in red.
[quote]
Explains some performance complaints are related to BIOS setting. HVM explained on Wikipedia. On Intel the BIOS setting is called Intel VT, on AMD it is called AMD-V. Here is a list of HVM compatible notebooks.
This provides alternative for running code native or hosting code on machine native. It was directed to lcuk, and is general statement.
Explains background knowledge for requested feature is useful, provides flexibility, while admitting requires resources and dependency on such should be optionally not a requirement.
Explains reason lack of requested feature, explains right now is not issue yet.
Provides a solution and starting point.
sometimes it is not required to understand everything written in post.I'll clarify by first quote and then provide clarification. The relevant parts I'll put in red.
[quote]
Originally Posted by allnameswereout
This part of the post explains why running a virtual machine (VM) to run a SDK is not necessarily a Bad Thing and states several examples of good virtual machines. It also explains running a virtual machine with good performance (near 100%; near native) is possible.
If the VM and VM image is good enough, which partly depends on hardware, you won't give a damn about it not being native. AS/400, Solaris Containers/Zones, Xen, VMware Workstation, Parallels (for Mac), Rosetta prove this to be true. The latter 3 even allow one to run the application under a VM without a full desktop, including support for theming. It is same with running x86-32 applications on x86-64. With recent Intel and AMD processors utilizing HVM on host OS you get almost 100% performance in a x86-64 or x86-32 guest OS although I/O is one area which traditionally lacks which is a reason Xen requires modification in guest OS. With Xen, you can get even more than 100% performance.
You also may have to enable HVM in your BIOS (!!!). So, IMO, you need specific arguments. For example, why Eclipse doesn't cut it for you. Keep in mind that when you use the SDK you are also using a VM: QEMU. Enabling HVM will improve the performance for QEMU as well.
@ lcuk, you could use NFS as well, having all the native ARM stuff on a dedicated server. Or use sbrsh(d). Seriously, sbrsh(d) is exactly made for this, and I'm pretty damn sure its how Nokia uses it internally. Yes, over rsh, not ssh. For performance reasons (SSH is overhead, especially on embedded environments, and NFS is lightweight as well; both are tried and true on *NIX, but can be made to run on Windows as well).
Also, developers need to have some kind of *NIX knowledge. It really helps a lot when developing just like being able to program is useful as UNIX admin. Sometimes, the command line is just faster than GUI, and sometimes programming it yourself is faster than using a script engine.
It is a pre, much like knowing *NIX helps you find your way in Maemo. I do understand the reasons for providing the choice of not requiring this knowledge though,
but Qt is targeted for Maemo 6. It does not surprise me there is no good Qt IDE for Maemo 6 for Windows yet given there is also no official support for Qt on Maemo either.
c't 2010/10 contains good introduction for programming with Qt with Qt Creator. Yes, the howto is platform agnostic. I thought there was also an in depth tutorial for automating & aiding scripting which is useful too but I can't find the article.
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Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
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2009-10-23
, 17:12
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Posts: 434 |
Thanked: 325 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
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#23
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Thanks for the clarification.
I and where is this? Do you mean this:
http://qt.nokia.com/developer/getting-started
Originally Posted by allnameswereout
Ehr...
c't 2010/10 contains good introduction for programming with Qt with Qt Creator
Provides a solution and starting point.
I and where is this? Do you mean this:
http://qt.nokia.com/developer/getting-started
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2009-10-23
, 17:22
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Posts: 850 |
Thanked: 626 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
@ Vienna, Austria
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#24
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Originally Posted by Sasler
no, i believe he was referencing the magazine c't, the bestest of the german IT magazines
and where is this? Do you mean this:
http://qt.nokia.com/developer/getting-started
| The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SubCore For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-10-23
, 17:27
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Posts: 3,397 |
Thanked: 1,212 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Netherlands
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#25
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Originally Posted by SubCore
Indeed, high quality mag (Wikipedia link). Although I read the translated Dutch version (blasphemy!), and I thought its also translated to English which appears not to be the case. Also, 'Sas' (short for Sasha) is a common German name so I assumed too much. Excuse me.
no, i believe he was referencing the magazine c't, the bestest of the german IT magazines
__________________
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
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2009-10-23
, 17:32
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Posts: 1,217 |
Thanked: 446 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Bedfordshire, UK
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#27
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Originally Posted by arpwatch
I downloaded virtualbox, installed it and then the virtual machine image. Unpack it using 7zip (just go for the first file) and then start up virtual box vas per the readme. I got it working on Vista 64bit first time in about 10 minutes so give it a try!
Setting up VMWare and installing a linux distribution is too difficult? Who the heck are these coders?
I'll make a deal with anyone in that situation. I'll walk the coder through installing vmware and ubuntu, and in turn they can teach me how to code for maemo.
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2009-10-23
, 19:00
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Posts: 452 |
Thanked: 522 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
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#28
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I'm just a hobbyist, with no ties to Nokia. So everything I do is because I want to. ;-) I developed the vpc-sdk image, and I find it to work fairly well for development currently. (If you are having any issues with it -- jump to the dev forum, and I will support it <G>)
---
However, this is my "vision" of where I would like to actually go with the project I started:
1. VM is totally hidden (might still be using Virtual PC, or might be Portable Ubuntu or AndLinux image) -- Currently VPC is working. I plan on investigating the other two image possibilities. I've downloaded them, but have other "higher" priority items going on.
2. Use of Cygwin Xephyr (I am currently doing this) or maybe a sneaky trick with a window in Qt creator with a vnc connection into the VM to allow the main emulated window of the device to be published out to the Windows desktop inside. (See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32537)
3. Qt wizard that would have ability to transfer code into and control the scratchbox environement. I've started investigating this and I'm really being "lazy" until the sdk+ project gets the final Fremantle SDK installed. The Scratchbox 2 appears to be a much (much) better solution to allow external control. This would allow you to develop your applications in a Qt Creator, click run and hopefully it would hand off your code the SB2 env inside the VM, tell the VM to compile the code; then run it attaching the output back to either Cygwin Xephyr or some other windows output method. Thereby hiding the VM completely. And making development from "Windows" possible. The ability to package up your final src deb's is also fairly simple and could be also put into a "wizard".
Remember this is very much a spare time type project -- I want to make it much simpler for "me". ;-) If others want to join in; I'd love the company.
Nathan
---
However, this is my "vision" of where I would like to actually go with the project I started:
1. VM is totally hidden (might still be using Virtual PC, or might be Portable Ubuntu or AndLinux image) -- Currently VPC is working. I plan on investigating the other two image possibilities. I've downloaded them, but have other "higher" priority items going on.
2. Use of Cygwin Xephyr (I am currently doing this) or maybe a sneaky trick with a window in Qt creator with a vnc connection into the VM to allow the main emulated window of the device to be published out to the Windows desktop inside. (See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32537)
3. Qt wizard that would have ability to transfer code into and control the scratchbox environement. I've started investigating this and I'm really being "lazy" until the sdk+ project gets the final Fremantle SDK installed. The Scratchbox 2 appears to be a much (much) better solution to allow external control. This would allow you to develop your applications in a Qt Creator, click run and hopefully it would hand off your code the SB2 env inside the VM, tell the VM to compile the code; then run it attaching the output back to either Cygwin Xephyr or some other windows output method. Thereby hiding the VM completely. And making development from "Windows" possible. The ability to package up your final src deb's is also fairly simple and could be also put into a "wizard".
Remember this is very much a spare time type project -- I want to make it much simpler for "me". ;-) If others want to join in; I'd love the company.
Nathan
| The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Nathan For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-10-23
, 19:02
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Posts: 162 |
Thanked: 65 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Indiana
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#29
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Originally Posted by Sasler
Well I'm ignorant when it comes to *NIX and coding, not that I haven't dabbled and poked around in both over the years. (i copy bits of VB script/batch files to make what I need once in a blue moon) I do have other technical computer experience and, by tinkering and failing for a few hours 2 nights in a row, I went and wiped out my VM (of Ubuntu only) and was finally able to have success in building my Scratchbox environment. (but should I have sound? I know that package failed)
Ah, but you seem to forget that one of the most basic traits for the vast majority of humans is laziness!
Then there is the simple fact, at least for an occasional amateur coder, that if setting up the system takes too long or is complicated, the original enthusiasm might die out quickly.
There is definitely less margin for error in using Linux to create a working Maemo app dev environment for those without experience. I know where I went wrong at times initially but couldn't trace the trickle down problems it generated at other points in the setup. Even so, I don't give up easily. Even if I never produce a single Maemo app, I know I can build a Scratchbox environment, probably both manually and using the scripts, again and again. I welcomed the learning experience.
Wouldn't it be terrible if a car designer never stepped foot in the manufacturing plant? That just seems wrong to me, but hey, it may happen.
If someone's going to be too lazy to create a dev environment that may force them to grow their brain in the process, I'd hate to see how they maintain their app. But that's just my opinion. I probably see devs/coders as being more qualified to follow along than regular users.
And as I completely forgot about and then spotted again last night, there's the VM image with all the tools preinstalled. (as Fargus pointed out) I grabbed it and will play with it too since it has ESbox which is where I'd eventually head with my other VM.
When I document something for someone else, I use exact words as they would see, I use screenshots, and format the text so the correct details stand out where needed. Maybe over time we can help improve the current documentation for those who need it, since it is all part of the community effort.
@arpwatch Highly commendable offer; maybe we need a little pool of people willing to help others. Or perhaps someone can just record the entire process and build it into a replayable screencast, it may just reduce the number of requests for help.
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2009-10-23
, 19:35
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Posts: 434 |
Thanked: 325 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
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#30
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Originally Posted by Nathan
Well the idea you have is really good and I would like to help if could, but I'm afraid that my current technical knowledge on this seems to be so insignificant that I would only slow you down...
I'm just a hobbyist, with no ties to Nokia. So everything I do is because I want to. ;-) I developed the vpc-sdk image, and I find it to work fairly well for development currently. (If you are having any issues with it -- jump to the dev forum, and I will support it <G>)
---
However, this is my "vision" of where I would like to actually go with the project I started:
1. VM is totally hidden (might still be using Virtual PC, or might be Portable Ubuntu or AndLinux image) -- Currently VPC is working. I plan on investigating the other two image possibilities. I've downloaded them, but have other "higher" priority items going on.
2. Use of Cygwin Xephyr (I am currently doing this) or maybe a sneaky trick with a window in Qt creator with a vnc connection into the VM to allow the main emulated window of the device to be published out to the Windows desktop inside. (See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32537)
3. Qt wizard that would have ability to transfer code into and control the scratchbox environement. I've started investigating this and I'm really being "lazy" until the sdk+ project gets the final Fremantle SDK installed. The Scratchbox 2 appears to be a much (much) better solution to allow external control. This would allow you to develop your applications in a Qt Creator, click run and hopefully it would hand off your code the SB2 env inside the VM, tell the VM to compile the code; then run it attaching the output back to either Cygwin Xephyr or some other windows output method. Thereby hiding the VM completely. And making development from "Windows" possible. The ability to package up your final src deb's is also fairly simple and could be also put into a "wizard".
Remember this is very much a spare time type project -- I want to make it much simpler for "me". ;-) If others want to join in; I'd love the company.
Nathan
Anyway, I just downloaded your image. Unfortunately I'm having some major issues in installing Windows Virtual PC on this laptop that I'm currently using (Windows 7) in the first place. It just says "The update is not applicable to your computer"... So typical. Something we Windows users are all too familiar with: Nothing ever works as it should when you really want it!
Oh well. I can always trying in a different computer.
Last edited by Sasler; 2009-10-23 at 19:38.
I'm sure that this was very understandable and simple for a Linux user. But I think that for many Windows users texts like these, while no doubt meant to help, only scares them. We have to keep in mind that we Windows users are more familiar with "Next" buttons instead of some faster command line arguments.
But thanks anyway. I'm sure the people who are smarter than me over here (probably everyone else