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kwtm is offline kwtm
2010-08-18 , 22:02
Posts: 21 | Thanked: 8 times | Joined on Jun 2010 @ North America, west coast
#21
In response to the original post by Outdoors, I'll put my own opinion of the N900 here, hopefully a balanced view that others can use to decide whether to get a N900.

I agree with Rm42 that the N900 is the most powerful device out there, not necessarily because of hardware (which will become obsolete in the blink of an eye) but because of the versatility in the hands of a programmer. I myself am not much of a programmer (left the engineering profession many years ago) but still write shell and Python scripts; and that is sufficient to wield the power of the N900

Smoku mentioned a number of devices which s/he felt was more powerful than the N900: "Acer Liquid Stream, Samsung Epic 4G, Samsung Vibrant, Samsung Captivate, Motorola Droid 2, Motorola Droid X, HTC Evo 4G, Dell Streak, Samsung Galaxy S, HTC Incredible, HTC Desire, HTC Nexus One, Sony-Ericsson Xperia X10" I am not familiar with any of these devices, but I doubt if you can gain root on these devices and fiddle with the OS. Here are things that I can do on the N900; can you do this with any other geekphone? If so, I'd be interested:
  1. - view and edit text files, in their original format. This is my main use for the N900: I look up medical information contained in text files that will replace cumbersome medical textbooks. I run vim and search for keywords in text files over 10 MB in size (yes, 10 MB of text; we're not talking a 10 MB PDF or a 10 MB JPEG file which contains much less useful info). Previously I used the Palm Treo/HandEra/TRGpro which could edit text files but you'd have to convert it to/from the Palm text format, which is still not too bad...
  2. - replace the user interface with a modified version (modified Linux kernel, modified Hildon interface). Bonus points if the modified version is open source so you can trust/modify it.
  3. - use Python with libraries that let you hook up to the DBUS interface so you can control other applications. (Other systems might require use of C/C++, which might be okay for others but I find Python much easier to learn and keep up with.)
  4. - backup to my home server via online Internet access, so I can do a backup while I'm taking a walk in the park, and feel secure knowing that I have a backup copy of the priceless video I just took of my kid.
  5. - do shell scripting. Bonus points if it's (pretty much) the same Linux shell that you're already used to using on your desktop.
These are things that are unique to the N900 that made me buy my third one even after I found the first two defective. On the other hand, I would agree that if programmability is not something of which you can take advantage, you might not get enough benefit to justify the cost (dollars, time, effort) of getting and maintaining a N900. You might be more interested in an Android phone, iPhone, or the latest Palm thing (I know Pixi displaced Pre, but is there something newer now)? All of these involve software that other people have written for you, but I want to be able to write my own. Believe it or not, I spend most of my time on the command-line interface, and most of that is in vim editing text files.

Hope that helps.
 

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gerbick
2010-08-18 , 22:05
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#22
Originally Posted by ossipena View Post
In what tone should the answers be then? Think about it, you have said it already million times and then another idiot comes by and spreads the same FUD.... everyone has a breaking point and I am not wondering why qwerty left. The torrent of stupidity sucked him in and spit away.
I don't disagree fully... but I fear that qwerty12 left due mostly to the inability of Nokia to keep their word and direction as well as how they regarded the community in their decisions moreso than rampant idiocy from this community. Re-read his rant, his vitriol was split between Nokia, Nokia fanboys and the Nokia Community Council than FUD and idiocy.

You'd expect the community to lack the structure and order of Nokia; not the other way around.

..and the worst cases just keep on going, no matter how hard you give them facts, tomorrow another thread containing similar FUD. And you probably know what happends if you argue with idiots? So yes, the last word usually is from those mentioned latter. Even when it seems you don't notice it, you have in sub-concious level at least.
I don't argue with idiots usually. I tend to point them in the direction of information. If they're unable to learn from facts, then all I've wasted was a CTRL+C, CTRL+V gesture. The next finger gesture will consist of only my middle finger and no more time wasted after that.

No need for anger. Or stomping off repeatedly due to my perception of how bad this community has slipped.

I am glad the forum rules have been changed, being in here has been an one bad nightmare for a long time. I kinda feared it before N900 was launched and my fears came true. No matter how many hours I spent with wiki making it better for newcomers, etc etc. And all I got as an reward was some imaginary points (read:karma) and hundreds of people who didn't know how to google and browse wiki....
And just imagine when/if MeeGo gets into the hands of more ex-Apple iPhone owners and the like. I assume that you will probably leave for good once that kind of user becomes more prevalent than just the ones you tend to throw hissy fits about now that oppose your viewpoint.

Simply put, **** is only going to get weirder around here. Consumers are not known for being the most savvy of folks.

I can say I tried all I could, can you say the same?
Easily.

Yes I know nokia screwed you and you are still pissed about lack of support for n810 and all that "fixed in fremantle" -stuff but please..some people have contributed a hella lot, so shut the **** up for a while if you have nothing more to do than criticize nokia, support FUDders, etc etc...
Do me a favor. Take your own advice and be less of a dimwit while ever talking to another adult. I think even a simpleton as yourself can attempt civility. If not, please just go away once again in one of your tirades like some pre-pubescent girl upset her boobies haven't grown in like the rest of the girls.

Your tireless rampage against folks that have grievances and were smart enough to do the research and avoid having it done to them again is rather pointless and utterly wasted on me.

So... take your own advice child and thanks for proving that you are indeed part of the problem here at TMO; not part of the solution.

Leave the discussion to the adults. I was trying to help make sense and see what could be done about the people that spread FUD and how to quell that. Not get flamed for not being like you... angry and unconvincing at most anything other than spreading vitriol.

How nice of you. Begone, approach discussion with me once you grow up.
 

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smoku is offline smoku
2010-08-18 , 22:23
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#23
Originally Posted by AlMehdi View Post
None of those run Maemo..
Oh right.
It's not that hard winning the race if you are the only one attending.
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Sarcastic_Twit is offline Sarcastic_Twit
2010-08-18 , 22:33
Posts: 15 | Thanked: 10 times | Joined on May 2010
#24
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Do me a favor. Take your own advice and be less of a dimwit while ever talking to another adult. I think even a simpleton as yourself can attempt civility. If not, please just go away once again in one of your tirades like some pre-pubescent girl upset her boobies haven't grown in like the rest of the girls.

Your tireless rampage against folks that have grievances and were smart enough to do the research and avoid having it done to them again is rather pointless and utterly wasted on me.

So... take your own advice child and thanks for proving that you are indeed part of the problem here at TMO; not part of the solution.

Leave the discussion to the adults. I was trying to help make sense and see what could be done about the people that spread FUD and how to quell that. Not get flamed for not being like you... angry and unconvincing at most anything other than spreading vitriol.

How nice of you. Begone, approach discussion with me once you grow up.
He represents people that need a cheerleading section to make a phone purchase. There's no growing up from that.
 

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ndi is offline ndi
2010-08-18 , 23:03
Posts: 2,050 | Thanked: 1,425 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Bucharest
#25
90% of people that are unhappy with their N900 would be unhappy with any other phone because they never look at what they have, but at what others have. This is a mistake, because any phone, car, girl, home, whatever, is NOT going to be the best out there. Really, no matter who you are, there's always something better, mainly because "better" is subjective. You might own a Rolls and the guy with the sportster would circles around you, but you don't get bleeding ears from roaring engine and a back ache every drive.

This is especially true with tech, since a computer, phone, whatever it is, will have a subset of features. Some will be in, other will not, and even if they are all in, they take up space, and drain battery. Even if they don't, by tomorrow afternoon someone is going to announce a better one.

You'll never be satisfied if you compare your 8 months old phone to the jewel of phones yesterday.

Get bearings on the scale, realize that in today's market N900's old, and know that the only one able to rate your phone is you.

Now, if you want to make your kindergarten colleagues jealous, you're out of luck. Get spending. Bragging rights are reserved for those who shell out.

I spent about 5 grand on my PC. How long before it was outdated? Less than a month. You know what, it's not the jewel of the world any more, but a year later, it's still fast, agile, decent, stable and I'm quite pleased with it. To me, it is worth every penny.

That's life. Either you learn to appreciate what you have, or you don't. If you do, FUD won't matter.

It's not like bugs don't annoy me every day, and it's not like I'd hesitate to groin-kick whoever decided N900 gets monolithic updates. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a decent browser, most of the stuff I need and is overall a good device for the money. There is little more I can expect of it. If I want a laptop, I'd get one (I have one, it's huge and heavy). If I want it to last a day and fit in my pocket, sacrifices will be made.

Unfortunately, not everyone understands that. Some have their bad moments, when the phone simply lets them down. Some don't have good moments, and some simply complain because daddy didn't ask them before, and they wanted an iPhone.

I don't understands what it is about N900 that makes some people so unhappy. If you bought a vintage VW Beetle from '59, would you come to the car collectors forum and complain you don't have traction control?

It is what it says on the box it is.
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danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-18 , 23:10
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#26
Originally Posted by AlMehdi View Post
None of those run Maemo..
Or, to look at it another way, NOTHING else can run Maemo for lack of openness in Maemo. We can only hope MeeGo will not fall into this pit.

Originally Posted by AlMehdi View Post
And none of those are as configurable as the n900.
I have to disagree there. They're AS configurable, if not more. Let's not forget that Android has been, ironically, more open-sourced than Maemo 5. Certainly, it's been altered and hacked a whole lot more, from the looks of the ROM scene around Android versus development on the N900. Where's all the crazy cool apps that work with that glorious operating system? Not on Maemo 5, it appears. Hell--you have a hard time just getting good MAPPING software, nevermind anything else. But digressing back to "configurable": Take a look around at the modding scene and then try again.

Originally Posted by AlMehdi View Post
Sure better devices for the masses but not as powerful as the n900. Sure the n900 got places where it lacks and when those are covered i will switch... but i fear it will take time until that is met.
You're clearly behind the curve and haven't really been around much. There are a plethora of already much-more capable and powerful handheld devices. Does your N900 have HDMI out? Does your N900 have wifi-n or at least upgradable to it? Does your N900 have strong CDMA/EVDO grade encryption to keep your phone calls and Internet private? Do you even have a CHOICE in that? How many different models of Maemo 5 devices can you purchase at this time? Are any of them available in a larger tablet form?

Mind you--if you're just comparing to iPhones, you might have something of a point. I wasn't. FUD works both ways, lad.

Originally Posted by AlMehdi View Post
Are they capable to run a full fledged desktop OS like Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora as good as the n900? How long do they hold the battery? Can you overclock them as easy?
Full fledged desktop OS like Debian? Yes. At least, in the way you mean it--as full-fledged at the N900 has it, yes. There are many, and even Android tablets can run both at the same time the way N900 can run EasyDebian and Maemo at the same time.

Battery time varies from device to device. My Motorola Droid has some of the best time for a smartphone around. That, and it's extreme durability, were the two reasons why I decided on getting it despite the even faster and more powerful choices around. Nice thing about Maemo's competitors is that there are so gosh darned MANY of them that you're BOUND to find some variation that hits on something you particularly favored.

Overclocking on every one of Maemo's competitor's devices is not only possible, but quite easy and very common--well beyond the 1GHz range. I could technically overclock my Motorola Droid to around 1.2GHz, but I'm a bit too paranoid for that and I like my long battery life.. so I only overclocked up to 800MHz for now.

Originally Posted by AlMehdi View Post
But true.. this is not a black and white opinion.. In my mind there is no better device out there yet.
No, really. Get out more--or at least explore the options a bit so you have a more rounded opinion. Just saying--you can't fight EVERYTHING off as FUD, otherwise you become the FUDster.

Originally Posted by TiagoTiago View Post
Think different :P
DifferentLY. The correct grammar is "Think Differently." You're as bad as the marketing people, if you keep repeating it. Especially if that's all you're going to say about it.

Originally Posted by kwtm View Post
can you do this with any other geekphone? If so, I'd be interested:
  1. - view and edit text files, in their original format. This is my main use for the N900: I look up medical information contained in text files that will replace cumbersome medical textbooks. I run vim and search for keywords in text files over 10 MB in size (yes, 10 MB of text; we're not talking a 10 MB PDF or a 10 MB JPEG file which contains much less useful info). Previously I used the Palm Treo/HandEra/TRGpro which could edit text files but you'd have to convert it to/from the Palm text format, which is still not too bad...
  2. - replace the user interface with a modified version (modified Linux kernel, modified Hildon interface). Bonus points if the modified version is open source so you can trust/modify it.
  3. - use Python with libraries that let you hook up to the DBUS interface so you can control other applications. (Other systems might require use of C/C++, which might be okay for others but I find Python much easier to learn and keep up with.)
  4. - backup to my home server via online Internet access, so I can do a backup while I'm taking a walk in the park, and feel secure knowing that I have a backup copy of the priceless video I just took of my kid.
  5. - do shell scripting. Bonus points if it's (pretty much) the same Linux shell that you're already used to using on your desktop.
1. Yes. If you use a plain old text editor (Android, iPhone, PalmOS, etc) they ALLLLLLL can edit/view raw text files. (i.e. TxtPad in Android) Almost all of these text editors can also do simple search/replace as well.

2. Yes. At least, I know Android can. There's at least half a dozen Launcher (the Google Experience app launcher program) replacements you can choose from... some 2D, some 3D, one particularly popular one even looks a lot like HTC's HTC Experience program launcher. As far as what I've read, yes--they're completely open-source.

3. Yes. You can use Python to communicate with other apps (it's not called a DBUS interface). Generally, at least in Android, people usually write their programs in a Java-like language, but you CAN install Python, Perl, BASH and other languages on Android using the Android Scripting Environment (ASE).

4. God, yes. Every platform has those in spades. Any particular protocols you would like me to find an application to support in Android?

5. Yes and no. You could do BASH using the ASE I mentioned above. Would seem the same. Or, if you're rooted, you can install and run BusyBox and it's pretty much exactly the same Linux shell scripting in BASH at the Linux kernel. ASE seems much more mature than BusyBox scripting, though.

Originally Posted by kwtm View Post
These are things that are unique to the N900 that made me buy my third one even after I found the first two defective..
That smells like FUD against anything except N900. If you genuinely believe what you said above, it's very unfortunate. You should really get your hands on something else for a few days or at least really read up on them before you claim these things as unique to one platform.
 

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outdoors is offline outdoors
2010-08-19 , 00:02
Posts: 82 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Jun 2010
#27
I find it very amusing that I can't decide if you guys are fighting over Nokia, the n900 or the FUD surrounding it.

Also funny that this thread now has turned into the same old war which was somewhat the point of the OP.

Great that I now have so many suggested alternatives with resistive screen and keyboard that work flawless without a hitch. Who needs the n900!
 

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outdoors is offline outdoors
2010-08-19 , 00:18
Posts: 82 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Jun 2010
#28
Originally Posted by BroisPlankton View Post
You could be brainwashed but i would just like to record my satisfaction with the N900. It works better than Nokia N95 and N97, esp N97 in terms of software and build.
I possibly have low expectations after these mobiles and HTC Touch Pro 2. Hasten to add HTC as mobile was fine but did not think much of Windows mobile.
Anyway despite negativity in these forums I am a happy bunny and have been grateful for support from the community, esp those that convinced me to give this mobile a go.
Have to say not overly impressed with Nokia at present. Sorry to end on negative.
Kind Regards,
Paul
Perhaps the best post I have ever seen Paul.
A nice comparison with older phones that I can relate to, a measurement of your expectation, how satisfied you are now and finally, pinpointing the negative aspect of it. All in subjective perspective and without ego.

The fact that you are able to separate your experience with the n900 from how you feel about the Nokia business model deserve praise. I wish all posts would be like that.
 
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imperiallight is offline imperiallight
2010-08-19 , 00:55
Posts: 857 | Thanked: 362 times | Joined on Feb 2009 @ London
#29
But today I just woke up from my brainwashed state and realized that I would be trading semi-working flash to no flash, resistive to capacitive screen, usb storage to no storage, small keyboard to no keyboard etc...
Assuming you are not adverse to jail breaking:
* iPhone has flash 10.1 support in progress (Frash) and apps where you control desktop browsers to stream flash content. So its very weak but not absent. It can display websites in desktop and tabbed view using other browsers sans flash.
*Capacitive is better than resistive technology for palm use unless you want to draw something on a tiny screen, that's why people keep banging that drum on here.
* There are ways to use it as USB drive (legally using itunes) or more directly using JB. SSH and iphone explorer also.
*The capacitive keyboard on the iphone is much faster than pressing the n900 buttons. But people prefer the tactile feedback and preciseness of physical keyboards (me included). Solution: fill almost the entire screen with a keyboard and add haptic feedback support (that's what I am using). Something like the bluetooth su 8w or smaller keyboards have native support also. Keyboards are so yesterday with the advent of dictation for small messages or web search also. Saying that I am certainly not averse to hardware keyboards as long as the device is relatively light and thin.
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imperiallight is offline imperiallight
2010-08-19 , 01:06
Posts: 857 | Thanked: 362 times | Joined on Feb 2009 @ London
#30
When purchasing a device, like someone said if you know what you want and no other device is as good at that set of features which will make you happy then go for it. The n900 is no exception here.

But always be reasoned in your choice, weigh up the alternatives by spending a little time with devices and listen to other peoples experiences and tips. Otherwise you will spend needless money and be upset.
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