[Council] State of Maemo, Q32010.2 - Page 3 - maemo.org

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lma	2010-12-02 , 10:10
Posts: 2,802 \| Thanked: 4,491 times \| Joined on Nov 2007	#21

Originally Posted by Jaffa

I don't know what detail is needed, but I'd've thought that a more compelling proposal would be easier to get approved.

IMHO the problem isn't approval, it's getting someone to actually do the work. Requests for components that Nokia isn't willing to open get WONTFIXed pretty quickly.

...if someone doesn't respond in a timely manner, bugging them/the Council/Quim seems more appropriate

Like this? ;-)

Don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence, forgetfulness or over-work.

I don't believe for a second that there's any malice involved. But there is such a thing as fatigue from too much begging that gets you nowhere.

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	nicolai	2010-12-02 , 10:45
	Posts: 1,637 \| Thanked: 4,424 times \| Joined on Apr 2009 @ Germany	#22

Originally Posted by timsamoff

The bottom line is most likely that someone needs to ask. If you have an area that you would commit to supporting and maintaining, Nokia may consider opening the code. Of course, the caveat is that the code you ask for may be proprietary and/or not necessarily pertinent to open in regards to everything that Maemo "does."

But, stating a case and providing a legitimate means for maintaining the code is the first step.

Tim

It is just that:

Originally Posted by CommunityCouncil

ideas about opening various pieces of Maemo source code that are still closed

sounds to me like something new, a new plan or strategy for
opening closed parts.
I am really excited about that. What can we expect?

Nicolai

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number41	2010-12-02 , 12:44
Posts: 173 \| Thanked: 219 times \| Joined on Nov 2010	#23

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but by giving incentives for this community to migrate to MeeGo, as in providing an application framework that is compatible with both MeeGo and Maemo, with still making it clear that doom looms over the horizon for Maemo, is Nokia trying to set this community as the core for the new MeeGo community?

Forgive me if I sound naive, I'm still getting myself acclimatized to the way things happen.

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SD69	2010-12-02 , 12:45
Posts: 1,513 \| Thanked: 2,248 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ US	#24

Originally Posted by Jaffa

Well, let's hold them to their word:

So do the same thing again and hope that the results will be different this time? No, I don't think so. Sometimes you have to learn and move on. I don't have an obligation to give Nokia repeated chances or to repeatedly bang my head against a wall.

To put this in context, I have a hard time asking community members to work towards Diablo SSU^2 because my gut and my brain is telling me that we can't rely on Nokia opening things up. As a member of this community, my obligation is to the community. And I can't, in good conscience, try to convince fellow community members that they should expect good results. I said awhile ago that we would be better off if we proceeded on the assumption that nothing would be opened up and be pleasantly surprised and grateful if they do.

__________________
3-time Maemo Community Council Member
Co-Founder, Hildon Foundation

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	Jaffa	2010-12-02 , 12:50
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#25

Originally Posted by SD69

So do the same thing again and hope that the results will be different this time? No, I don't think so. Sometimes you have to learn and move on. I don't have an obligation to give Nokia repeated chances or to repeatedly bang my head against a wall.

Then don't. I'm not putting a gun to your head.

I said awhile ago that we would be better off if we proceeded on the assumption that nothing would be opened up and be pleasantly surprised and grateful if they do.

I don't disagree. And, for Fremantle, the bits I'm interested in seeing improved are already open source.

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stenny	2010-12-02 , 13:24
Posts: 81 \| Thanked: 114 times \| Joined on Jun 2010	#26

Originally Posted by Jaffa

...if someone doesn't respond in a timely manner, bugging them/the Council/Quim seems more appropriate than saying "well, I filed it, nothing happened, therefore Nokia is purposefully saying one thing and not doing another". Don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence, forgetfulness or over-work.

This is ridiculous. If they can't respond in a timely manner to their bug tracker they need to get the hell out of the software industry altogether. It doesn't matter if it's malice, idiocy, or (poor babies) over-work. If Nokia stipulates a procedure and the procedure doesn't work because of them then Nokia is full of crap, full stop.

At the very least the Council can stop bleating about "opening up maemo" every six months so we don't have to explain to a new batch of users that it is all talk and no action.

Originally Posted by Jaffa

I don't disagree. And, for Fremantle, the bits I'm interested in seeing improved are already open source.

Well, congratulations, you fantastic egotist. Is it dizzying, the way the world revolves around you? I guess we can stop talking about this altogether, since you've got what you want.

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Matan	2010-12-02 , 13:36
Posts: 1,224 \| Thanked: 1,763 times \| Joined on Jul 2007	#27

Originally Posted by stenny

At the very least the Council can stop bleating about "opening up maemo" every six months so we don't have to explain to a new batch of users that it is all talk and no action.

You need to remember that the council members are in effect employees of Nokia marketing. They get small favours from Nokia (paid trips to conventions, free gadgets), and in return they try to make it seem as if Nokia cares about Maemo users, as in every few months "Nokia wants to open up code, but bad developers don't help", or in council publishing Nokia's "response" to MyNokia fiasco, as if it is actually a response.

__________________
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"N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan" Is the new "Mer is Fremantle for N810".

No more Nokia devices for me.

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	Jaffa	2010-12-02 , 14:54
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#28

Originally Posted by stenny

This is ridiculous. If they can't respond in a timely manner to their bug tracker they need to get the hell out of the software industry altogether. It doesn't matter if it's malice, idiocy, or (poor babies) over-work. If Nokia stipulates a procedure and the procedure doesn't work because of them then Nokia is full of crap, full stop.

At the very least the Council can stop bleating about "opening up maemo" every six months so we don't have to explain to a new batch of users that it is all talk and no action.

The Council is here to help (ignoring Matan's trolling). If no-one says "oh, by the way, could you get involved as the relicencing process doesn't seem to be working", we won't get involved. As it happens, I have emailed Nokia this afternoon - pointing at the "ping" lma pointed to, asking on the status and further clarification.

Well, congratulations, you fantastic egotist. Is it dizzying, the way the world revolves around you? I guess we can stop talking about this altogether, since you've got what you want.

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that I've not followed the relicencing queue as I've not put anything on it. I was also pointing out that the openness of Fremantle is higher than Diablo.

If there's something blocked that you're interested in, could you please give me the URLs, and let me know your attempts to chivvy it along? I agree with you and lma: in a perfect world, we would not need to chase things up; but this is the real world and, technically, Nokia don't have to open anything up. It's difficult to justify a commercial business case for it, so bleats of "everything should be open" won't help.

Maybe nothing will, and if you're tired of trying, that's fine.

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lma	2010-12-03 , 09:50
Posts: 2,802 \| Thanked: 4,491 times \| Joined on Nov 2007	#29

Originally Posted by Matan

You need to remember that the council members are in effect employees of Nokia marketing.

Hey, that's out of line.

They get small favours from Nokia (paid trips to conventions, free gadgets)

Those were available to anyone with a significant contribution (including yourself), or even (as in the case of the Amsterdam loaner N900s) anyone who just showed up.

or in council publishing Nokia's "response" to MyNokia fiasco, as if it is actually a response.

Note that it was a former council member that voiced the strongest objections to cherry and wrote notmynokia.

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lma	2010-12-03 , 09:58
Posts: 2,802 \| Thanked: 4,491 times \| Joined on Nov 2007	#30

Originally Posted by Jaffa

The Council is here to help (ignoring Matan's trolling). If no-one says "oh, by the way, could you get involved as the relicencing process doesn't seem to be working", we won't get involved.

Fair enough, let's get this out of the way ;-)

Oh, by the way, if the relicencing process is back in business could you get involved as it doesn't seem to be working. More specifically, if there's someone looking at this again they could do a lot worse than check the existing pending requests (they're not that many).

As it happens, I have emailed Nokia this afternoon - pointing at the "ping" lma pointed to, asking on the status and further clarification.

Thanks!

I was also pointing out that the openness of Fremantle is higher than Diablo.

That's somewhat debatable, but I don't think a direct comparison is meaningful. I would say they're both semi-open but quite different and leave it at that.