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| The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to woody14619 For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-01-30
, 22:45
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Posts: 2,076 |
Thanked: 3,268 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
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#22
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Originally Posted by woody14619
Yeah marmistrz, throw ash on your head and repent. Oh wait... You never guys provided evidence for the legality of the first ban. Idiots vs stupid fan boys. Does woody deserve a ban now? Sufficient reason nuff said? (btw get together for a drink and post results, the steam you throw around is obnoxious)
I'm done with this stupid fan club. Estel has done nothing but lie, break rules, make failed attempts to elevate himself, and seed disharmony in this community since he came here. If you can't see that, it's on you.
vs
all/some previous posters are liars and talking BS.
I don't care about this topic at all, but I'm the one who knows what's been the correct facts, just I won't elaborate on it.
All those who dare to answer to this post are idiots either, I declare the thread closed.
as a sufficient reason for a ban.
.
Why are you still being his fan boy when I just proved to you that he lied about this?
I feel you owe everyone an apology, especially those you've accused of doing "illegal" things.
| The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to szopin For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-01-31
, 00:47
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Posts: 1,163 |
Thanked: 1,873 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ The Netherlands
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#23
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Originally Posted by setter
Definitely
I think you have something to learn about this from Symbian-Freak and how we handles rules, warnings, bans and other stuffs.
__________________
N900 loaded with:
CSSU-T (Thumb)
720p recording,
Pierogi, Lanterne, Cooktimer, Frogatto
N9 16GB loaded with:
Kernel-Plus
--
[TCPdump & libpcap | ngrep]
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donate
N900 loaded with:
CSSU-T (Thumb)
720p recording,
Pierogi, Lanterne, Cooktimer, Frogatto
N9 16GB loaded with:
Kernel-Plus
--
[TCPdump & libpcap | ngrep]
--
donate
| The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mr_pingu For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-01-31
, 08:35
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Posts: 650 |
Thanked: 497 times |
Joined on Oct 2008
@ Ghent, Belgium
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#24
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Now I'm definitely fed up with this kindergarten mentality of the people in charge here. I run a community forum myself, and moderate several (high traffic) others, and I've never seen such childish behavior by staff.
The only bans I ever did, were spammers and non-users (people posting crap or insulting without actually being part of the community). Critics are users too. Critics can be vocal, but proving your point or disagreement by wielding your power is not done. We've always solved things with discussion.
As some $DEITY$ fan once said, let those who are without sin throw the first stone. How some dare to nitpick on others behavior is below my norms.
And I'm equally fed up with the typical OS mentality that, if you raise a point, you better step in and help out. Well I already do more than my fair share in other projects, as much as my personal situation can handle.
The only bans I ever did, were spammers and non-users (people posting crap or insulting without actually being part of the community). Critics are users too. Critics can be vocal, but proving your point or disagreement by wielding your power is not done. We've always solved things with discussion.
As some $DEITY$ fan once said, let those who are without sin throw the first stone. How some dare to nitpick on others behavior is below my norms.
And I'm equally fed up with the typical OS mentality that, if you raise a point, you better step in and help out. Well I already do more than my fair share in other projects, as much as my personal situation can handle.
__________________
Affordable mobile internet in Belgium: Try Mobile Vikings
2 GB, 1000 SMS and 15 euro of talk time for.... 15 euro
Affordable mobile internet in Belgium: Try Mobile Vikings
2 GB, 1000 SMS and 15 euro of talk time for.... 15 euro
| The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to petur For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-01-31
, 09:00
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Posts: 7,075 |
Thanked: 9,073 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
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#25
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I think it's time to put me in charge of this ********. First of all I would ban all of you posting in this thread for atleast a month. After that I will start banning a member every hour until all of you drop your childish political attitude.
Banning people is simply lame and shall only be used as an alternative absolute last resort. I think to many people here have some ridiculous high level of self importance. That's the issue. Just drop the attitude and give me moderator rights ASAP.
Banning people is simply lame and shall only be used as an alternative absolute last resort. I think to many people here have some ridiculous high level of self importance. That's the issue. Just drop the attitude and give me moderator rights ASAP.
__________________
Do something for the climate today! Anything!
I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
Do something for the climate today! Anything!
I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
| The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dave999 For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-01-31
, 09:33
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Posts: 5,028 |
Thanked: 8,613 times |
Joined on Mar 2011
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#26
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Originally Posted by thedead1440
Because second banned user was aquamarine, who haven't posted *any* content yet (lurker, probably). Get your facts straight.
HAHA!
Estel you say two members were banned and you only mention JCDenton?
Care to clarify who was letsee? It wasn't you? Didn't you say you wanted to speak to BoD due to your ban?
As for "letsee" (estel in reverse), I never, ever, said that it wasn't me. Letsee account was acleared - as said - to contact forum staff, as it was *only* one possible way to do so. Talking about contacting Council is pure ********, as Council - at the time - denied any responsibility over TMO, as it was managed by Reggie, on exlusive contact with Nokia. Before you ask, *yes*, I've tried contacting Council members, first.
Generally, mentality of people in charge here was/is - if we ban you, and you try inquiry, we ban you more. Heck, even in ban reason/after-ban PM posted by chemist, it was stated "if you try to bring it up for discussion, ban will be extended". Pathetic as it sound and is, he wasn't even ashamed of writing it, openly, like that! Mentality of "I can do whatever I want" was/is quite clear, here.
---
Now, as I understand it, discussion here is *not* about my case - especially that, frankly, I don't care - but about improving rules, as a whole.
As I understand responses of people in charge here ("now" and "then"), they're very fond of themselves, rules, and everything(tm). Heck, how could it be different, as person most responsible for fiasco of banning two innocent people - chemist - was proposed and made administrator of whole TMO. Before, they proposed the same for second responsible person, Reggie - thankfully, he wasn't interested in carrying for Maemo, anymore.
No one from staff made even a one-liner comment about illegality of using, on purpose One touch ban & clean against live user, instead of spambot, as it was mean't to be. Just to remind you, it mean not only banning said user eternally, but also deleting all content (post) created by that user. All of that against someone with positive thanks/post ratio...
Furthermore, even that you "vote by your money" via donations, staff clearly said where you can put your donations into. Even if people stop doing so, joerg and woody will fund TMO from their own money - at least in declarations, easy to be made, when people already donated many hunreds of dollars - just to keep TMO with unclear, muddy rules, away from any changes.
---
Personally, I don't see any chances for improvements here. Staff is proud of how they're doing, and don't see any need for change. Everyone not satisfied by the way it is can either:
1. Do like me - focusing on productive threads about working on Maemo (where "rulers" cast doesn't show themselves, for obvious reasons - they're too busy with pretending to be saviors of Maemo), and ignore all this mess - with risk of being hit by unfair ban or harrasment, if pathetic-I'm-all-mighty-and-above-the-law administrator wake up with angry mood, or...
2. Create independent Maemo board, using open engine (without wasting people's donations for closed-source vBulletin license). For sure, it would be much smaller-scale than TMO, but - considering how many respected and productive people are disgusted by current staff (most of them not participating in this thread), it could be quite satisfying in terms of discussion level.
As for option 3 - talking in this thread and trying to make TMO better - I sympatize, but don't even slightly belive in chances of success, considering personalities of current people in charge. Good luck, nevertheless.
/Estel
__________________
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
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N900's HDMI-Out
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Camera cover MOD
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Measure battery's real capacity on-device
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TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
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Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
-
N900's HDMI-Out
-
Camera cover MOD
-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
Last edited by Estel; 2013-01-31 at 09:37.
| The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Estel For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-01-31
, 09:36
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Posts: 3,328 |
Thanked: 4,476 times |
Joined on May 2011
@ Poland
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#27
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Originally Posted by woody14619
OK, I agree, the second ban was absolutely legitimate. Still I'm wondering whether the first ban was legitimate. I'm not with Estel or against him, I just want to push this to the end, so that the whole case is fully analyzed, so that nothing like that happens in the future. More such cases would ruin m.o!
Fine... Here is the e-mail archival link of the community mailing list, in which Estel admits he created a second account during his ban period, and admits to posting to the forum using it. Proof positive, in his own words.
Even here, he's obfuscated things by posting it as an Outlook e-mail attachment, so you need to click the second scrubbed attachment link to get the .eml file, and then either read it with Outlook or some other program that can sort through the cruft. (I just used vim to do so...)
In that attachment, he says:
He used the account (named Letsee) to post to the forum in at least 3 times, once as a followup to his thread on creating an aluminum case (now deleted?) and twice in two other threads, one of which being the one that earned him the temp ban.I didn't go looking for those, since he has the power to delete those posts and/or that account, and probably has by now to cover his tracks.
(...)
So there is your proof. Undeniable. Irrefutable. He broke the rules. Admitted to it freely, in an open, logged archive. Why do you think it was "illegal" to give him the punishment for breaking forum rules? Why are you still being his fan boy when I just proved to you that he lied about this?
I feel you owe everyone an apology, especially those you've accused of doing "illegal" things. But then I bet I have a better chance of Nokia doing an about face and releasing an N970 than to see that happen.
/edit: Well, I was wondering before, why Estel's mailing list messages are sometimes weird
__________________
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Projects no longer actively developed: here
Last edited by marmistrz; 2013-01-31 at 09:49.
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2013-01-31
, 09:46
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Posts: 535 |
Thanked: 598 times |
Joined on Apr 2011
@ Republic of the Philippines
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#28
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@Estel,
Can you just let this be a discussion between the OP and the ones in charge? pretty please?
@woody
You don't have to use such tone when speaking to someone who's just inquiring. He's not a member of the "fan club" and there is no such thing. There were just a bunch of people who had some interactions with Estel's helpful side and didn't care to watch the drama in the council threads, thus quite clueless on the events.
@all
please let this thread die. (apologies for posting here)
Can you just let this be a discussion between the OP and the ones in charge? pretty please?
@woody
You don't have to use such tone when speaking to someone who's just inquiring. He's not a member of the "fan club" and there is no such thing. There were just a bunch of people who had some interactions with Estel's helpful side and didn't care to watch the drama in the council threads, thus quite clueless on the events.
@all
please let this thread die. (apologies for posting here)
| The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to vetsin For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-01-31
, 09:46
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Posts: 5,028 |
Thanked: 8,613 times |
Joined on Mar 2011
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#29
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Well, considering that only one possible way of contacting staff about first ban, automatically result in second ban, we have kind of "he is guilty because he is guilty" situation here - cI'm not sure, if you're not too hasty with "second ban was 100% legitimate", then.
Funny enough, notice, how administration keeps away from discussing eternal ban and all-posts deletion of two innocent users (JCDenton and [/b]aquamarine[/b]) and instead, pivot into discussing my temporaly ban - that is least important thing in whole discussion, frankly.
General rule of "make it confusing above the point of understanding and nothing will change" apply here - we can discuss, but people in charge will do whatever they want, no matter what. After all, they've got donations, already, and keeping TMO the muddy way it is, is more important to them - to the point of declaring funding TMO out of own pocket - that any continuous support of donnors.
---
Sad, that such mentality must lead to collapse of hildon foundation, sooner or latter. But, it seems that it's the way it must be - not much can be done at this point, when messy statute got accepted, unresponsible people elcted, and donations made.
/Estel
// Edit
This message:
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...er/005699.html
... is my favorite part of discussion about banning innocent people, that was held in mailing list, then. Posted by Andre Klapper, as response to JCDenton's inquiry about his ban, sums the mentality of "is guilty because is gulty" pretty nice:
Last edited by Estel; 2013-01-31 at 10:05.
Funny enough, notice, how administration keeps away from discussing eternal ban and all-posts deletion of two innocent users (JCDenton and [/b]aquamarine[/b]) and instead, pivot into discussing my temporaly ban - that is least important thing in whole discussion, frankly.
General rule of "make it confusing above the point of understanding and nothing will change" apply here - we can discuss, but people in charge will do whatever they want, no matter what. After all, they've got donations, already, and keeping TMO the muddy way it is, is more important to them - to the point of declaring funding TMO out of own pocket - that any continuous support of donnors.
---
Sad, that such mentality must lead to collapse of hildon foundation, sooner or latter. But, it seems that it's the way it must be - not much can be done at this point, when messy statute got accepted, unresponsible people elcted, and donations made.
/Estel
// Edit
This message:
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...er/005699.html
... is my favorite part of discussion about banning innocent people, that was held in mailing list, then. Posted by Andre Klapper, as response to JCDenton's inquiry about his ban, sums the mentality of "is guilty because is gulty" pretty nice:
Originally Posted by Andre Klapper
So much about standards, and carrying for clear rules - majority of daily maemo infra users just don't care, (see vetsin's post, just few entries above), so people in charge could sleep well *shrug*
The attitude and wording shown in your email might provide enough reason
to justify that decision now, even if it was initially wrong?
__________________
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
-
N900's HDMI-Out
-
Camera cover MOD
-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
-
N900's HDMI-Out
-
Camera cover MOD
-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
Last edited by Estel; 2013-01-31 at 10:05.
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2013-01-31
, 10:08
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Moderator |
Posts: 6,215 |
Thanked: 6,400 times |
Joined on Nov 2011
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#30
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I think if the discussion about Estel's case had to happen it should have happened when he was banned or when his ban lapsed with Reggie still in charge instead of opening old sores now 
Estel, frankly I've no personal agenda against you; my posts in the first page too are facts not some stories or agendas. Since you want to use the mailing list messages to prove points I think many people around here including me would agree with vi_'s message:
What has passed Estel I think we should let it go and let's really stay on-topic and discuss how banning works and what improvements should be made.
Screaming at each other really will get us nowhere and if reforms are needed then well let's clearly discuss them here without previous agendas/grouses etc...
To the OP, you shouldn't have used Estel's case as a reference but now that we have reached this stage let's just put all that aside and discuss properly on what should be the norm. Since I'm suggesting it I'll throw the first suggestion:
- I really don't think MODs/Admins should disclose openly unless asked on why a member was banned at least till the member returns from his ban and can start a level-headed discussion. This would be the option if the below option is not feasible in the event of unlikely politically-motivated bans (something I haven't seen since I've joined if the debate didn't involve personal attacks)
- I wouldn't want for example if I'm banned to have my name being thrown around and saying what alleged wrongs I did. I would however prefer an avenue to discuss or complain if I felt I was banned unfairly. I think emailing Council is a good starting point to let your concerns be known.
Estel, frankly I've no personal agenda against you; my posts in the first page too are facts not some stories or agendas. Since you want to use the mailing list messages to prove points I think many people around here including me would agree with vi_'s message:
Estel,
Get a grip. You used to be cool, you made contributions and helped
people out. Now you are just being an absolute arse and ruining
everything for everybody.
Please, I beg you, go outside and take a long walk and consider the way you behave and the correlation between your attitude and the way that people treat you. Right now you are coming across as a very angry, very unhappy person who perhaps needs to work a lot on himself before he is
ready to work with a community.
Regards,
vi_
Screaming at each other really will get us nowhere and if reforms are needed then well let's clearly discuss them here without previous agendas/grouses etc...
To the OP, you shouldn't have used Estel's case as a reference but now that we have reached this stage let's just put all that aside and discuss properly on what should be the norm. Since I'm suggesting it I'll throw the first suggestion:
- I really don't think MODs/Admins should disclose openly unless asked on why a member was banned at least till the member returns from his ban and can start a level-headed discussion. This would be the option if the below option is not feasible in the event of unlikely politically-motivated bans (something I haven't seen since I've joined if the debate didn't involve personal attacks)
- I wouldn't want for example if I'm banned to have my name being thrown around and saying what alleged wrongs I did. I would however prefer an avenue to discuss or complain if I felt I was banned unfairly. I think emailing Council is a good starting point to let your concerns be known.
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Even here, he's obfuscated things by posting it as an Outlook e-mail attachment, so you need to click the second scrubbed attachment link to get the .eml file, and then either read it with Outlook or some other program that can sort through the cruft. (I just used vim to do so...)
In that attachment, he says:
There is your proof. In his own words, from his own e-mail account. Signed by his own unique identifiable signature key via the system he used to obfuscate the message, that he still e-mails with to this day.
He used the account (named Letsee) to post to the forum in at least 3 times, once as a followup to his thread on creating an aluminum case (now deleted?) and twice in two other threads, one of which being the one that earned him the temp ban.
I didn't go looking for those, since he has the power to delete those posts and/or that account, and probably has by now to cover his tracks.So tell me again. How was it illegal now? You and several others now for MONTHS have been pushing this, making accusations of impropriety and abuse. Believing everything Estel has said without a shred of evidence, and demanding "proof" from others, and then denying you ever saw it when you bring it up again a week later. And you know how easy this was to find? Right bar, select Search -> Advanced Search, Search by username, and type in Letsee (it even auto-completes, so having letse is good enough.)
I'm done with this stupid fan club. Estel has done nothing but lie, break rules, make failed attempts to elevate himself, and seed disharmony in this community since he came here. If you can't see that, it's on you.
So there is your proof. Undeniable. Irrefutable. He broke the rules. Admitted to it freely, in an open, logged archive. Why do you think it was "illegal" to give him the punishment for breaking forum rules? Why are you still being his fan boy when I just proved to you that he lied about this?
I feel you owe everyone an apology, especially those you've accused of doing "illegal" things. But then I bet I have a better chance of Nokia doing an about face and releasing an N970 than to see that happen.
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
Last edited by woody14619; 2013-01-30 at 21:40. Reason: Added some links...