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2015-01-30
, 10:45
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#292
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Originally Posted by nodevel
No mystery!
How did you get this out of my post will likely remain a mystery till the end of time
You said Apple and Microsoft can push their own standards. And thus, presumably, nobody else can. Certainly not a small startup.Therefore, only Apple and Microsoft can innovate, because their stranglehold over standards will prevent anyone else from doing so.
(At the very least, you are presenting an enormous barrier to entry for any small company attempting to develop their own hardware...)
EDIT: Just saw your edit. I have to agree, the stretch goal was a dumb idea from the beginning; regardless of which side you choose, there were many better options available for attracting more people to supporting the tablet. Paying for licensing just isn't exciting.
Last edited by Copernicus; 2015-01-30 at 10:53.
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2015-01-30
, 10:52
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Posts: 764 |
Thanked: 2,888 times |
Joined on Jun 2014
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#293
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Originally Posted by pichlo
I agree with this, the goal itself was ********.
What is a problem though is that Jolla had announced that unfortunate stretch goal. I also think they should never have but they did. And the goal was reached. Yes, it was a wrong goal (IMO) but going back on their word is a big no-no. Not the lack of an exFAT support. The lack of trust.
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2015-01-30
, 10:56
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Posts: 752 |
Thanked: 2,808 times |
Joined on Jan 2011
@ Czech Republic
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#294
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Originally Posted by Copernicus
First, I hope that Jolla does not push their own standards. Pushing your own standard is never a good thing, whether you're big or small.
No mystery!
Second, yes Apple, Microsoft, Samsung or Google do push their own standards and it is a pure logic that they would have not been able to do so if they were not big.
Originally Posted by Copernicus
Sure, that is definitely their aim - Microsoft has been doing that ever since I remember. It gives you a competitive advantage to have control over a "standard".
Therefore, only Apple and Microsoft can innovate, because their stranglehold over standards will prevent anyone else from doing so.
Originally Posted by Copernicus
Yes, I am presenting facts. Sometimes, it hurts to hear them
(At the very least, you are presenting an enormous barrier to entry for any small company attempting to develop their own hardware...)
But again, that wasn't my point. The main problem is not Jolla supporting or not supporting standards - the problem is that they announced something and I am sure that based on that announcement, many regular people (who don't care about any standards, just about their devices working together) have bought the tablet.
Jolla should have either never made such announcement, or stood by it once they did. Doing anything else is a false marketing.
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2015-01-30
, 11:05
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#295
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Originally Posted by nodevel
??? You are saying here:
First, I hope that Jolla does not push their own standards. Pushing your own standard is never a good thing, whether you're big or small.
Second, yes Apple, Microsoft, Samsung or Google do push their own standards and it is a pure logic that they would have not been able to do so if they were not big.
(1) Creating your own standards is not good.
(2) Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, and Google create their own standards.
So, from this, I would have to deduce that exFAT (a standard created by Microsoft) is not good. Right?
Or it is good because Microsoft, unlike Jolla, is big?
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2015-01-30
, 11:07
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#296
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Originally Posted by Urgenus
No. I don't think that's the case. They certainly don't hate regular customers. they're just a bit unlike.
So did i understood this correct.
First Jolla hates regular customers so much, that they leave something basic away (support for normal 128 and above memorycards). Then they announce, that if they get more money then they add support for normal cards. And finally when they got their money, they still are going to leave that support away?
Does Jolla really hate us normal customers so much? I feel stupid for using my little money for that kind of company.
Also, from what I gathered the story was like this:
First they only supported SD-cards <32GB in a standards compliant way, but cards above 32GB would work if reformated to a file system supported by the kernel. (Same situation as with the Jolla phone today.) Using such file systems is not recommended, neither is re-formating an SD-card. So this solution wasn't an official support of cards >32GB, but it worked somehow.
Then they announced that if they'd get more money, they'd really support SD cards above 32GB as sold in the stores. (By definition of the standards, those are exFAT formated SDXC cards.) That would have meant real, official support for cards >32GB.
Now that the goal is achieved, from what the latest news say they keep the money, but don't move forward to official support for cards above 32GB. They'll keep the half-baked solution that was there in the first place, from the very beginning: No official support for cards >32GB, but some trickery that will wipe existing data from the card, most probably make it slower and reduce its lifespan. That's what we had in the very beginning, that's what I have today on my Jolla phone. It's part of Sailfish OS right now, no need to licence or develop anything for it.
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2015-01-30
, 11:11
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Posts: 702 |
Thanked: 2,059 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ UK
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#297
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I think you're projecting a bit too much Copernicus. It's not about Jolla being the same as the others.
I'm absolutely fine with Jolla doing their own thing BUT there are consequences with their limited interoperability with the outside world.
The exfat situation means I can't do this...
http://petapixel.com/2013/03/26/how-...l-hard-drives/
The use of Microsoft's crappy mtp protocol means I have to use sftp on non-Windows or non-linux systems.
Their buggy PTP support makes it impossible to use common photo transfer tools, even on a Mac that supports PTP.
The lack of CalDAV and CardDAV support means I have to use Microsoft's Exchange or Google which is an entirely hypocritical situation given the protests about paying licences to Microsoft over exfat and privacy issues with having to have a Jolla account to download from the store.
There's still no SIP support and no sign of either Jolla doing it, them opening up accounts plugins or a third party doing it.
Most of these limitations I'd put down to simply lack of development resource and that they would get done eventually. But that's obviously not the case if they're going to ditch consumer oriented features because mouthy Linux fundamentalists don't want to pay Microsoft for another licence on a device that uses dozens of proprietary licensed tech already.
I'm absolutely fine with Jolla doing their own thing BUT there are consequences with their limited interoperability with the outside world.
The exfat situation means I can't do this...
http://petapixel.com/2013/03/26/how-...l-hard-drives/
The use of Microsoft's crappy mtp protocol means I have to use sftp on non-Windows or non-linux systems.
Their buggy PTP support makes it impossible to use common photo transfer tools, even on a Mac that supports PTP.
The lack of CalDAV and CardDAV support means I have to use Microsoft's Exchange or Google which is an entirely hypocritical situation given the protests about paying licences to Microsoft over exfat and privacy issues with having to have a Jolla account to download from the store.
There's still no SIP support and no sign of either Jolla doing it, them opening up accounts plugins or a third party doing it.
Most of these limitations I'd put down to simply lack of development resource and that they would get done eventually. But that's obviously not the case if they're going to ditch consumer oriented features because mouthy Linux fundamentalists don't want to pay Microsoft for another licence on a device that uses dozens of proprietary licensed tech already.
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2015-01-30
, 11:19
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#298
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Originally Posted by pichlo
That's what it's about. I'm really not all that concerned about the product and it's features: I myself will be able to work around missing exFAT support in one way or another (even if it'll be unnecessarily troublesome). Others will be lost when confronted with the situation, but hey, who cares about people who have social lives and don't spend their time researching file systems and the physical storage characteristics of an SD card. We're nerds, aren't we?
going back on their word is a big no-no. Not the lack of an exFAT support. The lack of trust.
Also, I still think the Jolla tablet, the Jolla phone and SailfishOS are great products worth being supported. That won't go away because of one feature missing. It's only the high level of trust that I had put in Jolla and its crew that is now gone.
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2015-01-30
, 11:19
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Posts: 752 |
Thanked: 2,808 times |
Joined on Jan 2011
@ Czech Republic
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#299
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Originally Posted by Copernicus
Yes, you got the deduction absolutely right.
??? You are saying here:
(1) Creating your own standards is not good.
(2) Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, and Google create their own standards.
So, from this, I would have to deduce that exFAT (a standard created by Microsoft) is not good. Right?
The exFAT standard is absolutely ridiculous, but it exists and is followed by device manufacturers (cameras, as mentioned in this thread before).
By the way, the "if you want something mainstream, buy an Android/iOS tablet" argument is quite off the mark. Not supporting standards (however crazy they are) is nothing that should be viewed as "not being same as others".
Because in the end of the day, a regular buyer (you might argue that Jolla isn't for regular buyers, but 1) I would strongly oppose this, 2) if it isn't then they are doomed like the troll 'bluefoot' is saying all along
) will not care about any mainstream, standards or ideology - it will come to 'my tablet can read my data from my 128GB card as was advertised, or it cannot'.
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2015-01-30
, 11:23
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#300
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Originally Posted by Copernicus
It's not "a standard created by Microsoft". (ActiveSync is "a standard created by Microsoft". Funny how none of the people who oppose exFAT ever made the same drama about Exchange support on the Jolla phone.)
So, from this, I would have to deduce that exFAT (a standard created by Microsoft) is not good.
It's the standard. There's only one.
Last edited by benny1967; 2015-01-30 at 11:28.
Look, I also don't think that a missing exFAT support is a big deal. To start with, I did not book the tablet. I do not have any SD cards larger than 32GB. And even if I did, I'm sure I could find some workaround or after-market solution. That is not a problem.
What is a problem though is that Jolla had announced that unfortunate stretch goal. I also think they should never have but they did. And the goal was reached. Yes, it was a wrong goal (IMO) but going back on their word is a big no-no. Not the lack of an exFAT support. The lack of trust.
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!