Counter arguments or rebuttals.

Looks like Quim's been layin' the smackdown since I checked out this thread last, lol.

I don't think that "Please come up with exact, specific requests why some specific package should become opened" is hard to understand. Please do, as I have already explained Nokia is more than willing to open components if there are good reasons provided.

And no, I did not read every single posting in this thread either, because I sometimes simply have to work. ;-)

That's getting afield of the original point to which I responded. It's easier to agree when the argument is watered down.

I don't recall you posting any good examples. Lots of bad examples, but not any good ones.

None the less, he's given you an invitation to post concrete cases. Rather than posturing, why not respond to that?

I've started a new thread to do just that for Diablo

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32448

Concrete examples have been asked for, these are a few I can think of. Most of them are quite unlikely to change any time soon, but they are real problems none the less. If some would call me a zealot for being annoyed by some of these issues, so be it, I do not see myself as one. In fact I very much appreciate what Nokia is doing. The N900 looks like a big step in the right direction.

Component: (closed parts of the) Maemo SDK (liblocation, libcityinfo)
Reason: Developers are free to make open source software that relies on these libraries, but if Nokia decides no longer to support them or not to compile them for new devices, your program won't run on them.

Component: hardware support: (fmtx-middleware, location-daemon, libbmeipc0, libgles1)
Reason(s): First, Linux is not the only open source OS out there. Some people may want to run something else on the hardware they paid for. Without open drivers or open specs, this is impossible to do without losing functionality.
Second, the closed source software may not have all the functionality you would like. For example, right now there is a discussion on the Openmoko community list about improving GPS accuracy with EGNOS. I'm not sure how well this will work out, but at least it's possible with open source. Another example would be the RX part of the FM system.

Component: Adobe Flash player
Reason: If Adobe Flash would be open source (I know, I know,...), we wouldn't have to wait until Adobe decides to compile the new version of Flash for Maemo. Compare that to the open HTML standard. As soon as Firefox has support for the latest improvements, you are free to take the source and compile it for your platform.

How can you compare what Nokia does (providing proprietary driver instead of open source driver) with what TiVo and Apple do (using DRM to not allow your own software & hardware).

If you want to use your own external GPS on your Nokia N8x0, you can do so, but on your Apple iPod touch you cannot because its locked down and the Bluetooth profiles are crippled (only supporting AD2P) or the hardware isn't even supported by driver (iPhoneOS 2.x). You can add your own Bluetooth profiles on Nokia N8x0 and Nokia N900. You can write your own driver for GPS. You cannot do that on a jailed device.

While I agree 100% open source drivers is ideal it isn't always viable. Like I said, even Openmoko folks had to opt for hardware without open source driver purely because the hardware was the best and there was no 'open' alternative. These folks are hard core open source freaks yet had to opt for proprietary. Isn't that telling? And, their other issue was lack of stability.