of course we can agree on that

i just want to point out one more time:

the scale is everything (as i've stated time and time again).
your local grocery shop can't really abuse what little data they collect. google's insurmountable amounts of data about individuals is on a completely different level than your nice little toilet paper example (which made me realize you didn't understand the issue at all, hence i'll stop arguing about this any further).

you may call me paranoid, but i see just too many possibilities for this much data to be abused.

if you think giving up a "little" privacy (which in fact isn't little at all) for the convenience of the google services is a fair trade, fine. i don't think it's fair at all.

Great! Glad to hear you agree with me now.

Lack of agreement doesn't imply lack of understanding.

Nokia needs to do more for OVI Maps rather than just technological bling - like voice search - essentially like get the basics right.

"You can look at Google's growing market share in Android, its dominance in search, and elsewhere as signs that it's winning in its markets. But for me, the best indicator that Google is winning is the increasingly vitriolic attacks piled on it.

You can always spot a winner by the bull's-eye painted on it. No one bothers to diss a loser."

Matt Asay - The Open Road blog - cnet.com

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10...g=2547-1_3-0-5

They need to give it away for free for X months, and extend that period periodically, for as long as OVI Maps is still lagging behind Google Maps in adoption. That may turn out to be forever (and at a later date, they may have to make that extension explicitly permanent, instead of "we're extending it another 3 months").

Right now, they need to gain market share and mind share. They aren't going to get that by charging for something someone else is giving away for free. They can charge for a "pro" version that offers advantages that Google doesn't (voice searching, etc.), but for the basics, they're going to need to be free. (btw: Google tends to do the same thing: many/most of their free services have "for pay" enhanced versions -- such as if you want higher quotas, or better anti-spam/anti-virus features, you can pay to have that).

They also need (for all of the OVI services) to emphasize the privacy angle. That they don't track your travel information, usage patterns, nor sell it to partners (marketing or otherwise). And they need to specifically differentiate themselves from Google when they say it. Further, they need to follow through on the behavior (ie. don't track usage patterns, travel patterns, and don't sell what information they have to their partners).

Basically, if they want to compete with Google's free services, they have to bill themselves as a service for "the privacy conscious, unlike Google" (though, obviously, only for the "moderately privacy conscious" -- the tinfoil hat people will always either avoid services they can't run themselves, or be Luddites). Google will fire back about how they're also privacy conscious ... when it comes to things like Govt Subpoenas, but Nokia will have to play up the "but not when it comes to things like tracking marketing uses" aspect. But, frankly, that's the main means of differentiating yourself from Google, with some form of value add.

Meanwhile, OVI/Nokia will still have to offer things in a manner that is competitive with Google: cross platform (ie. OVI cannot stick to just supporting Windows users), and the basics are free. For Google, "the basics are free" recovers value by how they use your information. For OVI, "the basics are free" will recover value by ... competing with Google (and, hopefully, by stealing market share from Google, starting with privacy conscious individuals). That's just the price of trying to compete with a free service. It's part of the overhead of marketing a service ... just like advertising.

Once Nokia is able to establish OVI as a competitve service, with a stable and sustainable market share ... THEN they can talk about how they might be able to charge for the basics. But, until then, charging for the basics will just make them "not a competitive offering compared to Google". That's true whether it's maps, mail, music, or whatever. Anything Google offers for free, OVI will have to offer for free.

And just like Google subsidizes that free service with money it makes elsewhere (ads, add-on services, etc.), Nokia will have to subsidize that free service with money it makes elsewhere (handset sales, patent revenue, etc.).

Google got to be the top from changing their business model, the competitors just failed to innovate in time. Thus lots of email users from hotmail, yahoo and other competitors went to Google. Likewise for Google Maps. I see nothing evil about that, sure their privacy things are scary but it's what you exchange for the service. Like how if you work for the U.S. government you give up some of your privacy in return for the job.

If Google ever becomes the bad monpolist then all that will happen is the U.S. government will step in as long as people are pissed off enough about it.

Toilet paper brand, big deal.

No, the interesting bit is when your health insurance premiums go up because you buy cheaper, less healthy food. Or go up because you started buying laxatives a lot recently.

Considering the big grocery chains also sell insurance, it would be surprising if those databases were completely unlinked.

That said, any store can track your purchasing trends without a store discount card easily. If you pay by debit/credit card, which nearly everyone does, your card number is enough to link each purchase.

Not just scale; also type of data.

If you're using Google Latitude, or Google Maps to navigate regularly, then if you're one of those people who regularly attend, say, anti-war protests, Google knows.

If you're using those tools, Google also knows if you regularly stop off at a particular brothel on your way home from the office. How often, and for how long.

Does it matter?

Hard to say.

The data is recorded. We don't know what future use of current data will be.

frank.wagner posted - a link to a gallery - of the Droid.

Seriously ugly machine. Reminds me of 1987.

Hands-on Gallery

I mean, look at that funky d-pad. I wonder if the Droid plays 8-tracks?