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GrimyHR is offline GrimyHR
2012-02-07 , 20:06
Posts: 470 | Thanked: 399 times | Joined on Jul 2011 @ Croatia
#291
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
I think you all are arguing from different angles sorta the same thing. Let's put it this way... if your market share drops considerably, then your margins need to jump considerably - I haven't seen any proof of that yet.

If you switch to something that's not selling well, your profits will invariably decline as well as your valuation - case in point, Nokia's stock is less now than it was a year ago... under $5.00, I bought in at low $8.00, sold at $8.40, got out before this drop.

The point though, charts will prove most anything - but the above is a fact. Nokia isn't selling as much, they've dropped in valuation, they're supporting a lesser selling WP7 platform and they've yet to hit their stride in anything in their portfolios - heck, by most accounts, N9's are selling more than Lumia 800's.
you are mixing market share and sale numbers, if SALE NUMBERS fall THAN you need tu boost up your margins, and at the time nokia anounced that its killing symbian(around the time n8 was the top symbian device), even thou the market share percentage was down, the NUMBER OF SYMBIAN DEVICES SOLD WAS BIGGER THAN EVER!
 
switch-hitter is offline switch-hitter
2012-02-07 , 20:52
Posts: 207 | Thanked: 552 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#292
Originally Posted by ossipena View Post
Exactly, it shows declining market share. The decision was about hanging on to own os, failure would lead into default or transforming company into pure HW + services (outside the next billion)
Do you think the market has reached saturation point? Being panicked into doing something drastic because your market share is declining when the market is growing at the rate it is and countries like China and India have barely got started is exactly the kind of vanity that leads to self destruction. NOKIA had plenty of time and space to act rationally.

Before Elop's announcement NOKIA had GROWING SALES, GROWING MARGINS and good PROFITABILITY. They also had a cohesive plan to cover mid-tier (Symbian) and high-tier (MeeGo) devices using a unified developer platform (Qt). Sure they had taken longer than the optimum amount of time to execute that plan but they had just reached the point where it could start to bear fruit and then what happens?...

Elop scuppers that plan and instead announces NOKIA will swap to an OS that is already a proven failure in the market place. As market share is your obsession check out the figure for WP7 and that's despite quality manufacturers like Samsung, LG and HTC already providing extremely nice hardware for it, better hardware than Symbian's ever enjoyed.

In fact Elop's actions absolutely guaranteed NOKIA would lose market share. In developed countries we are now seeing feature phones dropping off the bottom of the scale as many consumers opt for budget smart phones instead, this is exactly the kind of customer retailers and carriers would have pitched Symbian phones at if it weren't for the fact Elop had announced them EOL. Now low cost Android devices are being very successfully marketed to those customers instead.

WP7 supports a very limited range of hardware and the level of hardware it it requires just to run is too expensive for budget phones so NOKIA will now struggle to compete in that market.

At the top end NOKIA's hardware guys are wanting to put multi-core processors, higher res screens, better cameras, etc... on their new phones but WP7 doesn't support that either and it's likely to be another 9-12 months before it does. NOKIA are powerless to do anything about this except badger M$ to please hurry up and make WP7 as functional as Symbian is right now.

NOKIA can no longer compete on either scale, WP7 being the limiting factor.
 
gerbick
2012-02-07 , 22:27
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#293
Originally Posted by GrimyHR View Post
you are mixing market share and sale numbers, if SALE NUMBERS fall THAN you need tu boost up your margins, and at the time nokia anounced that its killing symbian(around the time n8 was the top symbian device), even thou the market share percentage was down, the NUMBER OF SYMBIAN DEVICES SOLD WAS BIGGER THAN EVER!
And you're quite mistaken my friend.

Let's keep numbers simple.

I once sold something for $1.00 in a 1 million lot - so 1 million dollars, and it cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be 50 cents on each, so half a million would go into my pocket.

I now sell something for $1.00 in a half million lot - so half a million dollars and it still cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be the same, so quarter of a million would go into my pocket.

If I want half a million to go into my pocket, I would either have to sell the product for higher, advertise it less but still sell, sell more, or find other ways to cut corners if my sales were lower than before and I want to pocket the same. Or diversify. Or expand to new areas.

Nokia's not doing any of the above. Their market share is shrinking meanwhile world population is growing. They might be charging higher for certain products, but those aren't selling high. The one thing that sold in mass quantities is on the decline because of prior announcements - read: Symbian.

So what are you saying? How would you boost your margins? Talking about it but never pointing it out doesn't exactly equate to making sense. Simply stated, make sense - exactly what do you think Nokia should do?

Because right now, their profits, their share and their margins are all shrinking - mainly because now they have to license a technology whereas they used to own all of the OS's they used.
 
gazza_d is offline gazza_d
2012-02-07 , 23:20
Posts: 961 | Thanked: 565 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Tyneside, North East England
#294
At the end of the day the general public can spot a turd a mile off, even a well polished one like WP7, and there just aren't enough salesmen good enough to manage to sell turds.

If I was Nokia and I had a free hand to do what I liked (and I suspect the deal with Microsoft limits what they can sell where) then I would..

1. release the N9 globally
2. Update and release the N950 globally as a highend "Communicator" device packed with whatever tech can be squeezed in
3. Continue development of Harmattan in house
4. Develop and launch a Harmattan device at the £100/150euro price point ASAP.
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ibrakalifa is offline ibrakalifa
2012-02-08 , 00:17
Posts: 1,583 | Thanked: 1,203 times | Joined on Dec 2011 @ Everywhere
#295
and make another harmattan device with latest chipset,
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Cue is offline Cue
2012-02-08 , 00:23
Posts: 840 | Thanked: 823 times | Joined on Nov 2009
#296
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
And you're quite mistaken my friend.

Let's keep numbers simple.

I once sold something for $1.00 in a 1 million lot - so 1 million dollars, and it cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be 50 cents on each, so half a million would go into my pocket.

I now sell something for $1.00 in a half million lot - so half a million dollars and it still cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be the same, so quarter of a million would go into my pocket.

If I want half a million to go into my pocket, I would either have to sell the product for higher, advertise it less but still sell, sell more, or find other ways to cut corners if my sales were lower than before and I want to pocket the same. Or diversify. Or expand to new areas.

Nokia's not doing any of the above. Their market share is shrinking meanwhile world population is growing. They might be charging higher for certain products, but those aren't selling high. The one thing that sold in mass quantities is on the decline because of prior announcements - read: Symbian.

So what are you saying? How would you boost your margins? Talking about it but never pointing it out doesn't exactly equate to making sense. Simply stated, make sense - exactly what do you think Nokia should do?

Because right now, their profits, their share and their margins are all shrinking - mainly because now they have to license a technology whereas they used to own all of the OS's they used.
I think the point is that Nokias sales were not in decline until the announcment. Whether it would have been even without it is debatable (I think it would have anyway, as Nokia became less relevant, not its OS) but people are looking at the growing, yes, growing, sales data before the announcment of WP7 and wondering.

http://m.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentr...ia37munits.png
Last edited by Cue; 2012-02-08 at 00:30.
 
mcdull is offline mcdull
2012-02-08 , 00:36
Posts: 229 | Thanked: 77 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Los Angeles
#297
Originally Posted by stickymick View Post
T-Mobile refused to stock the device because Nokia didn't and wouldn't provide a means for them to fill it up with their network lockouts and corporate bloatware, same reason that Orange didn't stock it.
I think this was a good thing that Nokia didn't compromise their product to the carrier. Looking at the crippled carrier Android phones, e.g. wifi hotspot is disabled, I'm glad I can use my N900 on T-Mobile US with US$10 unlimtied data plan because they don't sell it and don't force it to use smartphone data plan. Same when I have US$15 unlimited data and no function crippled when using N95 on AT&T.
 
mcdull is offline mcdull
2012-02-08 , 00:40
Posts: 229 | Thanked: 77 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Los Angeles
#298
Originally Posted by GrimyHR View Post
you are mixing market share and sale numbers, if SALE NUMBERS fall THAN you need tu boost up your margins, and at the time nokia anounced that its killing symbian(around the time n8 was the top symbian device), even thou the market share percentage was down, the NUMBER OF SYMBIAN DEVICES SOLD WAS BIGGER THAN EVER!
I think that was also because they have phrased out the Series 40 low end device and move Symbian devices to fill the spot for lower end devices at lowered price.
While moving Symbian to mass volume low end devices, the WP7 phone is supposed to fill the spot of Series 60 as the highend phones.
 
Joseph9560 is offline Joseph9560
2012-02-08 , 05:54
Posts: 440 | Thanked: 160 times | Joined on Aug 2010 @ Las Vegas, NV
#299
Originally Posted by mcdull View Post
I think this was a good thing that Nokia didn't compromise their product to the carrier. Looking at the crippled carrier Android phones, e.g. wifi hotspot is disabled, I'm glad I can use my N900 on T-Mobile US with US$10 unlimtied data plan because they don't sell it and don't force it to use smartphone data plan. Same when I have US$15 unlimited data and no function crippled when using N95 on AT&T.
I wonder which plan that is ($10)! I have recently got T-mobile, don't have much idea about US carriers. Got prepaid with voice only for a while (since almost all of the time I would be at home or office, I thought its not necessary to get data plan which I would merely be using, yet would love to know which plan that you are taking about).
 
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ossipena is offline ossipena
2012-02-08 , 08:26
Posts: 3,159 | Thanked: 2,023 times | Joined on Feb 2008 @ Finland
#300
Originally Posted by GrimyHR View Post
NUMBER OF SYMBIAN DEVICES SOLD WAS BIGGER THAN EVER!
what about the margins?
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