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promethh is offline promethh
2009-01-12 , 19:55
Posts: 211 | Thanked: 61 times | Joined on Aug 2007 @ Washington, DC
#301
Originally Posted by johnkzin View Post
...or a hybrid (like the Russian HTC 4G device which is HSPA+WiMAX), so that real customers can actually use it with existing and legacy infrastructure, and niche and future customers will be able to take full advantage of the WiMAX potential.

WiMAX isn't yet fully baked, and thus the N810WME was poorly conceived, from a product/marketing point of view.
XOHM (now Sprint/Clearwire) addressed the need for a dual-mode 4G (Sprint 3G + WiMAX) in December on their blog with the announcement of Sprint 4G Dual-Mode Device on the Way!

Since Nokia has been steadfast in their development of Internet Tablets as carrier-agnostic, the N810 WiMAX Edition was a one-off in tying themselves to XOHM. Had the Clearwire merger gone through earlier, they could have done 3G/4G, but then they would have been thoroughly tied to Sprint. With WiMAX authentication based off MAC addresses, the N810 WiMAX edition could theoretically be used with other 2.5GHz WiMAX providers, giving an "out" for Nokia and XOHM.

I agree with you that the N810WE was poorly conceived from a marketing point-of-view, but how was Nokia to know. 2 years ago, XOHM looked more promising and WiMAX had potential. If the economy were better right now, I'd still think WiMAX would have a decent chance between the investments of Intel, Google, Sprint, and Motorola.

Unfortunately, the US economy isn't what it once was, and all carriers are taking a hit on 4G deployments... and that's where LTE might overtake WiMAX if Sprint fails with Clearwire.
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rjzak is offline rjzak
2009-01-12 , 20:00
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#302
Perhaps the N810WE should have supported multi-band WiMax, like 2.5GHz, 3.5 GHz, and others. Perhaps throw in an unlocked GSM/Edge/UMTS modem in their and call it the new tablet thingger. That would rock.

My next Nokia device won't be a tablet but a replacement for my N95, whenever that will be. My tablet replacement will be a 17" MacBook Pro!
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promethh is offline promethh
2009-01-12 , 20:04
Posts: 211 | Thanked: 61 times | Joined on Aug 2007 @ Washington, DC
#303
Originally Posted by rjzak View Post
Perhaps the N810WE should have supported multi-band WiMax, like 2.5GHz, 3.5 GHz, and others. Perhaps throw in an unlocked GSM/Edge/UMTS modem in their and call it the new tablet thingger. That would rock.

My next Nokia device won't be a tablet but a replacement for my N95, whenever that will be. My tablet replacement will be a 17" MacBook Pro!
Having seen the multitude of WiMAX (2.4Ghz, 2.5Ghz, 3.5Ghz) frequencies worldwide and in the US, I'm already wishing that Nokia though ahead to get a multiband chipset. I'm wondering if one wasn't available at the time, would have cost too much, or whether Nokia really was betting it all on XOHM? (my guess is the latter)

I have high hopes for Maemo 5 and the new OMAP3 processor, but I'm curious to see what direction Nokia takes in wireless. Honestly, I think all 4G technologies are immature and poorly deployed at this point in the US. LTE and WiMAX both have a long way to go. Until we do, we need 3G or 3.5G solutions or none at all (802.11n?)
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johnkzin's Avatar
johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2009-01-12 , 20:13
Posts: 1,878 | Thanked: 646 times | Joined on Sep 2007 @ San Jose, CA
#304
Originally Posted by sjgadsby View Post
You're not the first to express this thought. I find it fascinating. I also wish to warn those of you who think you spend time and money at Fry's, Kroger, Walgreens, or A&W that you're suffering from psychosis.
I'm not in a backwater. I'm in Silicon Valley.

I can get CDMA and GSM/UMTS based services without a problem. From multiple carriers.

There is no such thing as WiMAX in my area. Sprint can declare it as a real product all they want to, but doesn't appear to be deployed to many more markets than it was when it was still in its test phase ... and Clearwire appears to only be deploying it to backwaters.

Comparing it to Kroger (or Frys, etc.) is a strawman. Kroger isn't a technology, they're a provider. Kroger is Sprint in this case, not WiMAX. The appropriate comparison would be more like "supermarkets" (in comparison with specialized markets, like "butcher shops", "produce shops", boutique grocery stores, bodegas, etc.). If Supermarkets basically only existed in Chicago and Baltimore and a handful of small towns, yes, I'd call them effectively vaporware when thought of as something you can say is a fully baked nationally available service.

For the US, how can you consider that to honestly be better than vaporware?

(for other countries... sure, Korea has a variant of WiMAX called WiBro ... and Russia must be doing something, because they've got that hybrid device ... but, who else has actual widespread WiMAX deployments?)
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johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2009-01-12 , 20:16
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#305
Originally Posted by promethh View Post
XOHM (now Sprint/Clearwire) addressed the need for a dual-mode 4G (Sprint 3G + WiMAX) in December on their blog with the announcement of Sprint 4G Dual-Mode Device on the Way!
When will it actually be available, though? :-)
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mobiledivide is offline mobiledivide
2009-01-12 , 20:17
Posts: 751 | Thanked: 522 times | Joined on Mar 2007 @ East Gowanus
#306
In the US ATT is probably going to roll out HSPA+ this year. That would be a perfect bridge technology for a new tablet, backwards compatible and wherever it is deployed users would have a great speed increase.
 
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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2009-01-12 , 20:31
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#307
The world is larger than XOHM, Sprint, Clearwire, USA, or North America. There are tons of WiMAX networks out there, and they do not all compete with HS*PA(+) or LTE.

Calling WiMAX dead because LTE is going to be rolled out is irrational.

If the device WiMAX chipset supports limited frequencies it might be difficult to sell the N810WME elsewhere in the world. That, and not all of those WiMAX networks are residing in regions where people would like to spend money on a N810WME. Also, OMAP2 is by now old hardware. New OMAP3 and new Maemo and new UI paradigms are rolled the future.

If you got a netbook or laptop with an add-on module (BlueTooth, WiFi, HS*PA, WiMAX, or whatever it is) and this is using ExpressCard, MiniPCI Express, or USB you can very or relatively easy replace this with an other packet radio. On a device such as a tablet this is much harder, if not impossible for an end-user.
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promethh is offline promethh
2009-01-12 , 20:47
Posts: 211 | Thanked: 61 times | Joined on Aug 2007 @ Washington, DC
#308
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
The world is larger than XOHM, Sprint, Clearwire, USA, or North America. There are tons of WiMAX networks out there, and they do not all compete with HS*PA(+) or LTE.

Calling WiMAX dead because LTE is going to be rolled out is irrational.

If the device WiMAX chipset supports limited frequencies it might be difficult to sell the N810WME elsewhere in the world. That, and not all of those WiMAX networks are residing in regions where people would like to spend money on a N810WME. Also, OMAP2 is by now old hardware. New OMAP3 and new Maemo and new UI paradigms are rolled the future.
That was probably one of the best posts I've read and my own sentiments exactly!

I see no reason why LTE and WiMAX can't co-exist. Sprint/Clearwire could become THE defining WiMAX carrier while others invest in LTE, but I don't believe that means that WiMAX is dead. Should Sprint get better coverage in 2009/2010 and more WiMAX devices become available, I don't see any reason why WiMAX wouldn't do well. And as you said, WiMAX isn't unique to the US by any means.

I'm hoping this isn't the end of WiMAX for Nokia. I'd like to see a Nokia N910WE with OMAP3 and WiMAX in the years ahead.
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johnkzin's Avatar
johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2009-01-12 , 20:54
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#309
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
The world is larger than XOHM, Sprint, Clearwire, USA, or North America. There are tons of WiMAX networks out there, and they do not all compete with HS*PA(+) or LTE.
Right. So, where is it?

I'll give you WiBro in S. Korea, and a few niches in the US. But that isn't enough of a deployment to contradict my overall point.

Calling WiMAX dead because LTE is going to be rolled out is irrational.
I didn't call it dead. I called it half-baked and vaporware. There's a world of difference between the two. Dead == obsolete and has no future. Half-baked and vaporware == has no practical present.

WiMAX may still have a realizable future. But it doesn't really have a reasonable present, outside of a very few regional-markets (in comparison to the regions/markets were CDMA and GSM/WCDMA are available).

If you got a netbook or laptop with an add-on module (BlueTooth, WiFi, HS*PA, WiMAX, or whatever it is) and this is using ExpressCard, MiniPCI Express, or USB you can very or relatively easy replace this with an other packet radio. On a device such as a tablet this is much harder, if not impossible for an end-user.
Right, for the tablet, the two approaches that work are:
  • accommodate a modular approach: PCI-Express-Mini card (could be done, with some re-design of the internals), have a well placed USB port (it doesn't; along the top, in a way that wouldn't interfere with the sliding screen, would have been better), or invent a new modular connector (bad idea, IMO), or
  • have multiple devices: one with no WWAN, ones with existing widely deployed WWANs (1xRTT/EVDO version, GPRS/EDGE/HSPA version), ones with niche/emerging WWANS (WiMAX version, LTE version).

The latter would have been reasonable if they had remembered the "ones with existing widely deployed WWANs". They didn't, so that has failed, IMO (and in the opinions of several other people in this discussion; but clearly that's the core of the disagreement -- whether or not skipping that item constitutes a marketing failure, thus far).
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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2009-01-12 , 22:21
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#310
Originally Posted by johnkzin View Post
Right. So, where is it?
Here.

I'll give you WiBro in S. Korea, and a few niches in the US. But that isn't enough of a deployment to contradict my overall point.
The world is bigger than USA and South Korea.

There are many more, and while HSPA+/EDVO is relatively easy and relatively cheap to roll out the prices for subscriptions and coverage of the network is not always good quality. For now, HSPA+ is rolled out in 2009. LTE is rolled out after that, and will require more substantial changes.

Nobody is claiming WiMAX will replace HS*PA* or LTE. They will compliment and compete though, and WiMAX will compete with wired (and WiFi) networks as well. Sometimes, even with satelite or dial-up (esp in rural areas).

Right, for the tablet, the two approaches that work are:
  • accommodate a modular approach: PCI-Express-Mini card (could be done, with some re-design of the internals), have a well placed USB port (it doesn't; along the top, in a way that wouldn't interfere with the sliding screen, would have been better), or invent a new modular connector (bad idea, IMO), or
  • have multiple devices: one with no WWAN, ones with existing widely deployed WWANs (1xRTT/EVDO version, GPRS/EDGE/HSPA version), ones with niche/emerging WWANS (WiMAX version, LTE version).
Exactly, and the former is much easier in hardware such as netbooks.

The latter would have been reasonable if they had remembered the "ones with existing widely deployed WWANs". They didn't, so that has failed, IMO (and in the opinions of several other people in this discussion; but clearly that's the core of the disagreement -- whether or not skipping that item constitutes a marketing failure, thus far).
The existing WWAN are not always

1) Existing.
2) Competitive price.
3) Allow tethering.
4) Use heavy QoS or restrict ports.
5) Provide decent coverage.
6) Provide decent overbooking and speed.
7) Have flexible subscriptions.
8) Or have a nice AUP.

In some regards the same is true for WAN.

In rural areas, metropoles, development countries, or countries with low quality WAN you have potentional.

And indeed, Clearwire is rolling out WiMAX in Belgium. Given the quality of Belgium broadband I give them quite a chance there!

In rural areas for last mile connection. Metropoles for businesses and because people keep residing there. It also has potentional for vacations (given high roaming of HS*PA).

Some of the frequencies are being licensed right now, in the EU, at least (forced, by directive). If I understood correct, every auction in Netherlands includes frequencies for WCDMA/HSPA _and_ WiMAX. EU has put max on inter-EU phone and SMS, but not data traffic. So there is competition possible there as well.

In the Netherlands in Amsterdam Aerea (WorldMAX) provide competitive priced subscriptions. I could buy a month long WiMAX subscription with good WiMAX speed for a mobile device including monthly subscription or even pre-pay. Without tethering/SIP whining and such. However, you'd need a USB dongle. Compared with data plans in Netherlands this is flexible and competitive although these have 90% coverage. Hence, it really depends on your purpose/goal. I can however assure you many businesses in Amsterdam never leave the A10 ring. If you'd have a repair shop or pizza express you could use WiMAX easily and cheap. Even in the shop (yes, it works inside buildings as well as of now).

So all in all I'm mostly aware of the WiMAX developments around my own regions (I know about deployment in some rural regions as well). If I were to go on vacation I would definately check for WiMAX connectivity. And, unfortunately, would not use a Nokia device for direct connectivity.

For every other entry on the wiki page referred to in top of my post you nor me can express an opinion about simply because we don't know about it. Unless you know more than me; it'd like to get a lot of your references then.
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