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gerbick	2014-09-01 , 10:17
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Originally Posted by pango

My example only sucked if you haphazardly skimmed the case (which I guess would happen with any example I might provide in detail) and considered customer happiness an on/off issue.

Um, that's exactly what the OP and you have been doing. Ignoring things that do not bolster your point.

And transparency seems to be what you think will make customers happy. Didn't work for Fairphone, now did it?

Won't work with an ultra-disgruntled person either. Especially one that goes in on rants ad nauseum and has yet to find a reason to continue on.

Yes. Your examples are myopic and not really of any value. I'll continue to think that until otherwise proven wrong.

And to you sir, a good day. There will be no resolution in this thread. Just idle banter from a pseudo-politician and his echo.

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	benny1967	2014-09-01 , 11:08
	Posts: 3,790 \| Thanked: 5,718 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria	#322

Originally Posted by pango

I'm 40ish.

Interesting. Wouldn't have expected that.

pango	2014-09-01 , 12:07
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#323

Originally Posted by gerbick

Um, that's exactly what the OP and you have been doing. Ignoring things that do not bolster your point.

And transparency seems to be what you think will make customers happy. Didn't work for Fairphone, now did it?

Well, we are all having a conversation (I hope). We have our views, they are not absolute truths and large portions of them are opinions. Neither of us, of course, can know what some strategy we promote might mean for Jolla in particular for certain - past can not predict the future, although it can of course give guidance.

As for transparency working for Fairphone, I still think you are viewing in excessively as an on/off thing, whereas I am promoting it on a scale. Both have similar issues, similar reactions, but I think Fairphone is both doing better for their customers and also reaping benefits from that. I think transparency overall can be very beneficial to business, especially when that business is at a stage that relies on early adopters and a community.

So, my view is that through added transparency, Fairphone is handling their order situation better - community perception wise - than Jolla who lacked transparency in their delivery process. I think Jolla should take a long hard look at how Fairphone is doing this and making similar adjustments. That is my opinion. Of course to prove either way a success or failure of either approach, it will take the long shadow of history and we're not there yet.

Originally Posted by gerbick

Won't work with an ultra-disgruntled person either. Especially one that goes in on rants ad nauseum and has yet to find a reason to continue on.

Perhaps, but then I'm arguing the fk_lx incident would never have escalated to the level it did, had there been more transparency, more open discussion, brutal honesty, earlier on, from not only fk_lx but also Jolla and thp. I can't prove it, but I i do think that is very possible. That is my opinion.

Originally Posted by gerbick

Yes. Your examples are myopic and not really of any value. I'll continue to think that until otherwise proven wrong.

I think the Fairphone example, anyway, is interesting because of the direct comparisons to Jolla. Transparency will not make or break either business (it will be bigger forces that do that), but it will be interesting to see how the completely different approaches to community play out.

I'm preferring the Fairphone transparency and my opinion is that it will show in increased customer/community satisfaction. I gather you are saying it won't make any real difference - I can respect your different opinion.

Originally Posted by gerbick

And to you sir, a good day. There will be no resolution in this thread. Just idle banter from a pseudo-politician and his echo.

Why you thought name-calling would be necessary or justified is beyond me. That is harder to respect.

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Thoke	2014-09-01 , 13:27
Posts: 284 \| Thanked: 661 times \| Joined on Aug 2013 @ Finland	#324

This discussion is about opinions. Interpretations and impressions valued against one's own ideals and expectations... All I see is slamming of these opinions against each other to no end...

This discussion has lost it's taste.

What I still want to contribute (against my better judgement), is that I see Jolla's situation as that of an amateur acrobat first time trying walk a rope... In case of Jolla, their business has two opposing ends, open source and transparency versus business realities, the former being able to seriously sever the latter. It's like living in a machiavellian (business) reality and still trying to live up to some higher ideals. And they're new at it.

What comes to their communication, I'd need more information to form a decision on that... and maybe greater motivation to find out. Right now at least I'm not up to it, and even less to discuss about it even if I came to a conclusion (=my opinion) somehow.

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NokiaFanatic	2014-09-01 , 14:13
Posts: 337 \| Thanked: 891 times \| Joined on Jul 2012 @ Royaume Uni.	#325

Just looking at FairPhone, I don't see how they communicate or are anymore open than Jolla. There are a lot of angry people who pre-ordered and were given virtually no communicate as to when they would be getting devices. Secondly, the OS itself is still on Android 4.3 and hasn't been updated. At least with Sailfish, there is a steady stream of updates and users have been able to feed into improvements. Finally, FairPhone look to have their own closed source components (Google services components and FairPhone UI layer).

If anything, Fairphone is much less open in both the fluffy communication sense of the word and in the technical FOSS sense of the word.

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JulmaHerra	2014-09-01 , 15:00
Posts: 285 \| Thanked: 1,900 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#326

Originally Posted by pango

I never said transparency was a easy or an instant cure, you can read that even in my message - the parts you simply left out from your quote.

No, but you did say that "more transparency" would result in better response, easing the pain and feeling better in every way. Obviously it doesn't work like that. If someone doesn't get what he wants, bitching is not reduced with any amount of transparency (quite the opposite, it might only add more fuel to the fire). It may be reduced by fulfilling the original request of having a working product as promised and if such thing is not met, bitching will be there no matter what you do. It's also because some people really like bitching.

How many people working that Excel, miffed about the sudden delays and DNA and whatnot, would have appreciated that from Jolla.

I appreciated getting those phones to customers as fast as they could with no unnecessary hindrance on top of every other problem they were facing (yes, I was one of The First Ones waiting). But of course it's just me... maybe someone else would have traded little chit chat for couple of weeks delay on already late deliveries...

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fk_lx	2014-09-01 , 15:20
Posts: 80 \| Thanked: 59 times \| Joined on Aug 2012	#327

Originally Posted by Morpog

Oh and I seem to have risen on fk_lx's list of top enemys

I must disappoint you - I don't have such thing as a list of enemies. I guess you are speaking about how you deal with life yourself.

Last edited by fk_lx; 2014-09-01 at 15:34.

pango	2014-09-01 , 15:47
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#328

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

No, but you did say that "more transparency" would result in better response, easing the pain and feeling better in every way. Obviously it doesn't work like that. If someone doesn't get what he wants, bitching is not reduced with any amount of transparency (quite the opposite, it might only add more fuel to the fire). It may be reduced by fulfilling the original request of having a working product as promised and if such thing is not met, bitching will be there no matter what you do. It's also because some people really like bitching.

I disagree, though, if that wasn't clear.

I think added transparency lessens bitching. It eases pain, but of course not all of the pain. There is a balance to be struck and I don't think Jolla is striking the balance. It looks to me Fairphone is making a good effort. In the long term, of course, this and other things will determine how well or badly history will view these enterprises.

Transparency will not make or break either company, but I think it is something I believe an early adopter community will appreciate and that's the reward for the company as well.

Hence I'm recommending it for Jolla. I see some of you guys are wildly opposed to Jolla being transparent, for whatever reason. Maybe they should take away that value poster away from the wall and replace it with "Secrecy".

No?

Just a bit of lighthearted banter there.

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

I appreciated getting those phones to customers as fast as they could with no unnecessary hindrance on top of every other problem they were facing (yes, I was one of The First Ones waiting). But of course it's just me... maybe someone else would have traded little chit chat for couple of weeks delay on already late deliveries...

That is such a false argument, though. Who said Jolla making a few updates would have delayed the phones? Vewry likely the people handling the deliveries were completely separate from those who would have and could have made updates on the status. And I'm pretty sure the latter group already kept in touch with the delivery people to know where things stood, anyway, even without communicating anything to the outside.

I doubt a community better informed would have delayed Jolla deliveries at all, let alone any arbitrary "a couple of weeks" you seem to have pulled from a hat to give your argument some artificial clout. They already had the likes of cybette posting here chitchat, instead what they could have done is have such people post here real information instead of that chitchat.

It doesn't seem to be an impossible task for Fairphone.

pango	2014-09-01 , 15:48
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#329

Originally Posted by Thoke

This discussion is about opinions. Interpretations and impressions valued against one's own ideals and expectations... All I see is slamming of these opinions against each other to no end...

Isn't most discussion, though?

I think that is absolutely fair that there are different views. I recommend added transparency to Jolla, others recommend secrecy.

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pango	2014-09-01 , 16:01
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#330

Originally Posted by nodevel

And again, I mentioned few posts beforehand, that companies do discuss such level in detail only if there's a recall.

Well, that's not really true either. A company like Toyota goes to that level in a recall, sure, but smaller companies can be wildly transparent. Just check out what Fairphone is doing, to use the example we have been discussing. They seem to be doing a lot of stuff people here said would be impossible. And that's, of course, in reality, far from the only such organization.

Originally Posted by nodevel

Thanks for raising another point against making such information public - people like yourself would be all over forums, complaining that "Based on the info they've given, that should have definitely make a recall! Look at Toyota, they did not screw customers like Jolla did."

Recall is a pretty clear-cut thing, though. Either there was a need to recall a faulty batch, or there was not. (I'm hoping there was not.) I hope you are not suggesting unethical behaviour that would recommend hiding a recall need? Or are you?

Lack of information resulted in this conversation, though. Not abundant information. Jolla indeed seemed quite suspicious when they just shut that TJC thread down without any explanation. Perhaps that was reading too much into it, but again that goes to my point why secrecy and transparency must be balanced. In that case, and others, I think Jolla has failed to find the balance.