Jolla Tablet Refunds (latest developments) - Page 33 - maemo.org

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jalyst	2015-07-01 , 08:53
Moderator \| Posts: 5,320 \| Thanked: 4,464 times \| Joined on Oct 2009	#321

Originally Posted by MartinK

You mean the people translating Sailfish OS on their own and waiting for Jolla to finally launch the community translation service they promised a long time ago ?
Or the developers wanting to use SDL and waiting for a fix to make its way to a release ?
Developers of multimedia apps waiting for GStreamer 1.0 to be added and allowed in Harbour ?
Developers waiting for usable Bluetooth support ?
Developers waiting for screen blanking support to be allowed in Harbour (that includes me)?
Low level developers waiting for a way to recovery a non-booting Jolla ?
Developers and users wanting to use SIP waiting on Jolla to finally do their part of the work ?

There are many people that are willing to help but can't due to waiting for Jolla to do their part...

Thanks for some actual examples, so IYO, is this an accurate account/summary of the situation?

If there was any "agility" you'd see them constantly talking to the few active community devs and patchers who have managed to significantly ameliorate many problems or lacking features ... instead the standard M.O. appears to be to ignore them completely even when they repeatedly reach out.

And IYO is SF clearly significantly worse than UT, Tizen, FFOS, or the several forked Android distros?
(i.e. does anyone here actively dev/power-use in one or more of those communities)

Last edited by jalyst; 2015-07-01 at 09:05.

	pichlo	2015-07-01 , 09:06
	Posts: 6,447 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#322

Originally Posted by jalyst

Not my Qn

That depends on how you define "it" in your, "is it really that bad?" I question the Jolla the company's behaviour in the market. Whatever your narrow definition of "it" is, it is covered.

Are you inferring I see Jolla as my special friend? I do like to try to look at things objectively.

Of course, everybody is objective. I am objective. You are objective. Somehow we always see the objectivity bias only in other people.

How would you react if you had a deal with your plumber about coming to fix your boiler, you paid upfront, and the plumber disappears without a trace for two months with no indication when or if ever he will come back?

Bad business is bad business. There is no difference between Jolla and that plumber.

jalyst	2015-07-01 , 09:15
Moderator \| Posts: 5,320 \| Thanked: 4,464 times \| Joined on Oct 2009	#323

I'm really just wanting you to address the Qn/point (admittedly it isn't necessarily easy without some careful/heavy research), if you don't know how that's fine.

I'm glad you weren't inferring that I see Jolla as my "special friend", & that only you are the master of all objectivity, thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by bluefoot

Indeed, further to that, Carol Chen reiterated last week (think on twitter) that they were still having issues integrating the display, hence the delays (and are we to infer lack of communication?). Are we really meant to believe that? If true, what are they doing? Trying to jam an etch-a-sketch into the shell with a lump hammer?

They've already suggested they have way more issues than just display-related to resolve (as if that isn't already obvious), see prior posts. They haven't even officially announced a delay, when/if they do (it's becoming increasingly likely there'll be one, we'll know for sure soon), if they say "Oh, it's just display problems -that's all", THEN you can go crazy, if there's a solid basis for that. But claiming now in the absence of their own official statement, that they're using display issues as some kind of smoke-screen, & the sole reason for any delay, is being disingenuous at best.

I didn't see your complaints about the massive yr upon yr delays for UT before it finally started to solidify at the start of this year, even today it's still far from fully baked, & certainly no more capable overall(1), less IME but that was ~7mth ago.

Re: the lack of updates. It is 4 months since they updated the main part of the Indiegogo page. However I guess you could say I was wrong as it's 'only' 3 months since they issued an update in the Updates section (to say thank you at the final -extended- close of the campaign). That they can't be bothered to push what little info they've published on the blog to the campaign page speaks volumes for how little they regard or value their backers.

C'mon now, really clutching a straws here, there was more recent updates in the BLOG, the BLOG is referenced at IGG, I agree they should also do their updates at IGG, but it's not really something one can crucify them over. It's an easy mistake to make, I don't think there's anything genuinely sinister going on, just complain to them(2) that it's unacceptable that updates aren't landing there too, they'll probably correct their processes & ensure they land there too from now on.

(1)
The desktop integration will be the sole really strong PoD
(2)
Ask around on Twitter for one of the PR folk, there's a few there IIRC

Last edited by jalyst; 2015-07-01 at 10:33.

JulmaHerra	2015-07-01 , 09:34
Posts: 285 \| Thanked: 1,900 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#324

Originally Posted by ZogG

This exactly prooves the point that lack of information is not good.
As there was no information if they actually resolved the problems with display (even HW problem as finding proper replacement). And no one said that they just need some time to finish software, as there is possibility as they hit a brick.

There has.

https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-iteration-4/

Some parts, for instance the Android app support and the support for multiple devices (tablet & phone) in the Jolla store backend and client need a lot of work still. Just to mention a few items. All in all, the Sailfish OS 2.0 software development is progressing steadily, but it still requires a lot of effort in many areas.

Last comment from them was from June 26th that there are still some problems to be resolved with ODM regarding the new display. However, until that is resoled, there is no relevant news to publish if there are no further delays.

The whole problem is that with no information all we talk here are speculations. And it can take you any direction.
You see it black and white, but no we do not need "yellow press" info from inside Jolla, all we need is brief update which is common thing in any crowedfunded project — ANY...

I have started to see it more black and white after seeing how every new piece of information spawns more speculation and much of that speculation is deliberately poisonous and negative. Only relevant update at this moment would be the binding delivery schedule or that there is further delay. Announcing the same situation (basically "we are working on it but have no dates etc. to announce yet") doesn't do any good. No "brief updates" will ever suffice, they will only spawn requests for more and we would be back in this very discussion again, dancing around funny definiton of term "silence".

It's not even about good or bad PR, it's about common sense when people funded the product and have no idea of it's status and future after 2 months delay.

Status is that there are problems with ODM and most likely something needs to be done on software side also, as it has been mentioned some time ago. Everything else beyond that is only speculation. We are within one month of target delivery date, so as I said before, only relevant information at this time is to announce that problems have been solved and deliveries will start in certain date, or that solving problems will need more time so there is further delay. However, it's likely that it's not yet possible to determine if further delay is needed and for how long, so it makes perfect sense not to announce something just for the sake of announcing something.

Though that's is more of yellow press, but you need to understand that some people not simply leave project with no reason, especially if they FOSS supporters and Jolla is so good....

I rather not speculate on reasons why people decide to change their job. People leave companies for numerous reasons, which doesn't really need to be anything more than someone annoying in the working place or methods, work burden, stress etc. Even inside FOSS-communities people change projects, do forks and go separate ways for various reasons. I can say that I wouldn't been able to go through launching of Jolla phone and long days just because I have family to raise, no matter how I felt towards company, the product or anything else.

just food for thought, that you are wearing pink glasses. And that they actually have great PR team if you still think all is that good and they are perfect, as their campains before they ask for money are always great and silence just after money is gathered is common pattern

Usually I don't wear pink glasses, not towards companies and especially not towards people, communities etc. I think you are exaggerating quite a bit on that part, if your definition of silence is what Jolla has done during Indiegogo-campaign, I'm not sure if I wanted to be in silent place like in your definition to get some rest.

bluefoot	2015-07-01 , 09:37
Posts: 338 \| Thanked: 496 times \| Joined on Oct 2010	#325

Originally Posted by pichlo

**response to - I don't think anyone is saying it's solely due to display issues...**
^^
Jolla did. Months ago. Since then, silence.

I really wish some people stopped seeing Jolla as their "special friend". They are not. They are a commercial company. And as such, their behaviour is a steady road to disaster. If not there already.

Indeed, further to that, Carol Chen reiterated last week (think on twitter) that they were still having issues integrating the display, hence the delays (and are we to infer lack of communication?). Are we really meant to believe that? If true, what are they doing? Trying to jam an etch-a-sketch into the shell with a lump hammer?

Re: the lack of updates. It is 4 months since they updated the main part of the Indiegogo page. However I guess you could say I was wrong as it's 'only' 3 months since they issued an update in the Updates section (to say thank you at the final -extended- close of the campaign). That they can't be bothered to push what little info they've published on the blog to the campaign page speaks volumes for how little they regard or value their backers.

bluefoot	2015-07-01 , 09:51
Posts: 338 \| Thanked: 496 times \| Joined on Oct 2010	#326

Originally Posted by jalyst

And IYO is SF clearly significantly worse than UT, Tizen, FFOS, or the several forked Android distros?
(i.e. does anyone here actively dev/power-use in one or more of those communities)

I know little of how the developers interact, help or hinder the community in Tizen, Android it varies greatly but most appear to be decent, FFOS I don't know but Mozilla are usually pretty good at communicating even if they don't always cooperate in the other spaces that they're active.

UT and Canonical's approach to it is light years ahead of Jolla. You can see exactly what they're working on at any given time, and what the bugs are (save for stuff that's way upstream), what the devs are thinking, what delays there might be & why, and anyone can jump in and participate, offer fixes or ask questions. It's all done on an open mailing list. You can also test any of the builds (at your own risk), which tend to be spat out every few days (or at least once a week). Excellent example of this was when Jolla's own stskeeps (the guy responsible for libhybris, which UT also employs) took issue with incomplete source (actually just mislabelled parts of source) being released for the Aquaris E4.5 in a blog post and post to the dev list. The developers responded and said they'd look into it immediately. They found the headers were incorrect (rather than Mediatek / bQ removing or obfuscating bits of the source) and released a correctly labelled version of the source within days. Granted you can't see the development process for OEMs' work, though you frequently can test their internal builds which are often pushed to the main repos. They're as transparent as it gets.

Regardless, the possible failures or inadequacies of other developers should not exuse Jolla from their own, which are very apparent.

	Dave999	2015-07-01 , 09:54
	Posts: 7,075 \| Thanked: 9,073 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side	#327

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

There has.

https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-iteration-4/

Some parts, for instance the Android app support and the support for multiple devices (tablet & phone) in the Jolla store backend and client need a lot of work still. Just to mention a few items. All in all, the Sailfish OS 2.0 software development is progressing steadily, but it still requires a lot of effort in many areas.

Last comment from them was from June 26th that there are still some problems to be resolved with ODM regarding the new display. However, until that is resoled, there is no relevant news to publish if there are no further delays.

I have started to see it more black and white after seeing how every new piece of information spawns more speculation and much of that speculation is deliberately poisonous and negative. Only relevant update at this moment would be the binding delivery schedule or that there is further delay. Announcing the same situation (basically "we are working on it but have no dates etc. to announce yet") doesn't do any good. No "brief updates" will ever suffice, they will only spawn requests for more and we would be back in this very discussion again, dancing around funny definiton of term "silence".

Status is that there are problems with ODM and most likely something needs to be done on software side also, as it has been mentioned some time ago. Everything else beyond that is only speculation. We are within one month of target delivery date, so as I said before, only relevant information at this time is to announce that problems have been solved and deliveries will start in certain date, or that solving problems will need more time so there is further delay. However, it's likely that it's not yet possible to determine if further delay is needed and for how long, so it makes perfect sense not to announce something just for the sake of announcing something.

I rather not speculate on reasons why people decide to change their job. People leave companies for numerous reasons, which doesn't really need to be anything more than someone annoying in the working place or methods, work burden, stress etc. Even inside FOSS-communities people change projects, do forks and go separate ways for various reasons. I can say that I wouldn't been able to go through launching of Jolla phone and long days just because I have family to raise, no matter how I felt towards company, the product or anything else.

Usually I don't wear pink glasses, not towards companies and especially not towards people, communities etc. I think you are exaggerating quite a bit on that part, if your definition of silence is what Jolla has done during Indiegogo-campaign, I'm not sure if I wanted to be in silent place like in your definition to get some rest.

Im not saying you are wrong. The information Im looking for is not only screen and issues. Im also intressted in what happend during the month.Good, stuff, bad stuff...funny stuff. dreams related to tablet devolvment. so much going on during development of a product. before they had pretty much montly updates(tablet itteration blog posts)...which was cool but then suddenly stopped without reason...so BAD Its crowd funding project.

edit a meesage on jolla is almost impossible

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Do something for the climate today! Anything!

I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...

Last edited by Dave999; 2015-07-01 at 10:07.

szopin	2015-07-01 , 10:12
Posts: 2,076 \| Thanked: 3,268 times \| Joined on Feb 2011	#328

2/10 very low effort, since this is now unsubstantiated suspicions thread, I suspect that:

since jolla is now officially russian mobile system (no longer rumour, sorry samsung: http://reviewjolla.blogspot.com/2015...-over.html?m=1 ) and got to the top of targets for NSA they are busy:
properly airgapping their environment
running background checks on both current and previous contributors (weeding out those backdoors)
with the help of russian hackers finding backdoors in HW drivers tgey planned to use (hence the problems with good components)
undergoing lie detector tests
swimming in sea of rubles

after all, Putin cannot be seen with NSA compromised device, hopefully he'll get a tablet too

juiceme	2015-07-01 , 10:19
Community Council \| Posts: 4,920 \| Thanked: 12,867 times \| Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland	#329

Originally Posted by Dave999

...
edit a meesage on jolla is almost impossible

There is good medicine for that, and it is called TOHKBD2

MartinK	2015-07-01 , 10:23
Posts: 1,548 \| Thanked: 7,510 times \| Joined on Apr 2010 @ Czech Republic	#330

Originally Posted by szopin

weeding out those backdoors

So maybe they should open source all they can so that also other can check that there are indeed no backdoors ? ;-)

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