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2015-04-29
, 14:57
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Posts: 385 |
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Joined on Dec 2009
@ Gothenburg, Sweden
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#352
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Fellfrosch: Yes, I agree with that, I know all that. I know its a rocky road for a startup, it hardly even doesn't happen today and we should be glad that they exist. They have limited resources both in terms of time, developers and money. Its always like that.
But that is also why I feel they haven't invested the best in these resources. I was willing to wait for the worst bugs and many has been fixed indeed, but some bugs and very basic features lacking are overshadowed by other features and gimmicks that is less important.
They better keep the priority of fixing the platform so that the basic features both work and is present. Because that is what the main segment of customers expect to be there. They can't ignore it and JUST be unlike.
It goes to a point when one finally says that enough is enough.
Its not only those I mentioned here, its a LOT more, regardless of how small they are. Like able to cut out text from a web page, like having SDL1.2 support, like configuring the indexer locations and exceptions, like a useful lockscreen for apps (music controls etc.), like filter for hiding android apps in store, like searching in mail, I can go on forever. Its just too much that is remaining after every release.
But that is also why I feel they haven't invested the best in these resources. I was willing to wait for the worst bugs and many has been fixed indeed, but some bugs and very basic features lacking are overshadowed by other features and gimmicks that is less important.
They better keep the priority of fixing the platform so that the basic features both work and is present. Because that is what the main segment of customers expect to be there. They can't ignore it and JUST be unlike.
It goes to a point when one finally says that enough is enough.
Its not only those I mentioned here, its a LOT more, regardless of how small they are. Like able to cut out text from a web page, like having SDL1.2 support, like configuring the indexer locations and exceptions, like a useful lockscreen for apps (music controls etc.), like filter for hiding android apps in store, like searching in mail, I can go on forever. Its just too much that is remaining after every release.
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2015-04-29
, 15:19
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Posts: 385 |
Thanked: 426 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Gothenburg, Sweden
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#353
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Originally Posted by Copernicus
No, I detest Android and it's java-crap based perverted linux platform, it is feature rich but it builds on crap and lagware just the same.
Ok, I'm totally confused here. You're annoyed that you're fenced off from the things that a regular android phone would handle. You aren't getting the paid apps that you would find on an android phone. You're pointing out that Jolla, unlike Android, is "half assed" for any customer profile.
If I add all this together, I've gotta say, it sounds like what you really want is an Android phone. Google has invested billions (yes, billions) of dollars into this platform, so their OS is naturally feature-filled and well supported. Despite being based on Linux, they have built up a closed-source environment that is very friendly to software entrepreneurs, so quality paid apps abound. And by having their OS supported by multiple high-end manufacturers competing with one another, the hardware is insanely cheap.
Jolla is not, and will never be able to better (or probably even match) Google on these points. Even if Jolla was a 100x bigger corporation than it is now, it would not be able to beat Google on these points. (Heck, Nokia itself died trying to compete with Google on these points. Even after it gave up its own efforts and went with Microsoft's offering, it still couldn't beat Google on these points.)
In short: don't buy a Jolla device (or any other non-Android phone) if all you want is to use an Android device that isn't licensed by Google. You're never going to be satisfied.
The whole idea has been corrupted from the beginning with Android, as much as I hate closed nazi-platforms like the ones from Apple at least they know what performance is and how to keep the eco-system tight enough so that low-quality apps and OEM hardware adaptations from second-class developers doesn't leak in everywhere. What kind of a f*king super quantum computer is needed anyway to get android run smoothly without sucking a nuclear plant dry over an hour?
What I'm criticizing is the Jolla focus and priorities, enough with glitter and glam. Stabilize Sailfish and enable paid apps.
I'm glad I didn't order the tablet even if I was tempted to at the time, I'm pretty sure it will be haunted by bugs and promised but missing features years to come.
Last edited by Larswad; 2015-04-29 at 15:27.
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2015-04-29
, 15:55
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#354
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Originally Posted by Larswad
What??? No clue what you're talking about here. Android is certainly not a perverted Linux platform; Richard Stallman might think so, but Linus Torvalds has explicitly licensed Linux in a manner that allows for using it within closed-source systems like Android. Google has chosen to pile on plenty of features, but has also ensured that the OS runs quite well on the hardware they target. I certainly have not noticed any significant peformance issues on the Android devices I've used.
No, I detest Android and it's java-crap based perverted linux platform, it is feature rich but it builds on crap and lagware just the same.
The whole idea has been corrupted from the beginning with Android, as much as I hate closed nazi-platforms like the ones from Apple at least they know what performance is and how to keep the eco-system tight enough so that low-quality apps and adaptations from second-class developers doesn't leak in everywhere.
Jolla is not following that scheme, and therefore, must follow a different route to success. Probably a longer, more arduous route. And they will probably (hopefully!) end up with a rather different product than Apple or Google provides.
What I'm criticizing is the Jolla focus and priorities, enough with glitter and glam.
Sailfish is not going to be Android any time soon. Possibly (hopefully!) not ever. Honestly, if you want a device that supports the features you find today in an Android phone, just go ahead and buy an Android phone; they are cheap and readily available.
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2015-04-29
, 16:22
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Posts: 385 |
Thanked: 426 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Gothenburg, Sweden
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#355
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Copernicus: Either you are not reading properly what I'm writing or you are intentionally misunderstanding just to make your point (whatever fanboy endgame that is).
Either you're intentionally taking my statements into something completely different, unrelated and deciding for yourself what I am criticizing or not, or you're simply misinterpreting everything.
If I say I like bananas, you say I like oranges.
That outset makes it completely meaningless to continue debating with you.
Good day Sir.
Either you're intentionally taking my statements into something completely different, unrelated and deciding for yourself what I am criticizing or not, or you're simply misinterpreting everything.
If I say I like bananas, you say I like oranges.
That outset makes it completely meaningless to continue debating with you.
Good day Sir.
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2015-04-29
, 17:15
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Posts: 6,447 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#356
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Copernicus, you have made a few very valid points and I agree with almost everything you said.
Except for this point:
I also admire Jolla for what they have set out to do and what they have done. But that does not mean that my admiration should be uncritical. And I have to agree with some of Larswad's points. For example about the Jolla's focus and priorities. "Make it work before you make it work better," is what it is all about. I also find it strange that they have spent 6 months on upgrading Qt when basic functionality is still missing (voicemail notification, global copy&paste, paid apps) or incomplete (CalDAV, proper email client, Exchange).
I can live with those things. I prefer the ability to run SSH or gcc on my phone to having paid apps. I do not use CalDAV or Exchange. I managed on my N900 without a voicemail notification so I can manage on my Jolla too. But I find it strange that such basic things are still not working, 18 months after the release.
Except for this point:
Originally Posted by Copernicus
With all due respect, sir, you have no right to say that. For two reasons. First, your interpretation is influenced by your bias. Which may or may not agree with his bias. Second, you, by your own admition, do not have a Jolla phone. So your experience with it is limited at best. You do not have to suffer the minor annoyances the regular users face every day. You, sir, see the Jolla from your ivory tower. We use it on the ground.
Originally Posted by LarswadNnnnno. I have to say, what you are criticizing here is not Jolla's focus. Indeed, Jolla has done amazing work already to create the product they are offering. No, what you are criticizing here is the fact that Jolla is not a multi-billion-dollar corporation.What I'm criticizing is the Jolla focus and priorities, enough with glitter and glam. Stabilize Sailfish and enable paid apps.
I also admire Jolla for what they have set out to do and what they have done. But that does not mean that my admiration should be uncritical. And I have to agree with some of Larswad's points. For example about the Jolla's focus and priorities. "Make it work before you make it work better," is what it is all about. I also find it strange that they have spent 6 months on upgrading Qt when basic functionality is still missing (voicemail notification, global copy&paste, paid apps) or incomplete (CalDAV, proper email client, Exchange).
I can live with those things. I prefer the ability to run SSH or gcc on my phone to having paid apps. I do not use CalDAV or Exchange. I managed on my N900 without a voicemail notification so I can manage on my Jolla too. But I find it strange that such basic things are still not working, 18 months after the release.
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Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2015-04-29
, 17:23
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#357
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Originally Posted by Larswad
I am reading what you are writing. You are stating that Jolla is not sufficiently focussed on implementing the basic features of a mobile OS in Sailfish. I say you are wrong -- I think they've done a perfectly fine job of implementing the basic features necessary for such an OS.
Either you are not reading properly what I'm writing or you are intentionally misunderstanding just to make your point (whatever fanboy endgame that is).
My argument is that your view of "basic features" implies a feature set that is as rich and as stable as Android. Jolla has not reached that point yet; they may not even be targeting a feature set that matches Android. And I don't see that as a problem.
To sum up, I'm simply trying to say that if Sailfish doesn't meet your expectations, that isn't necessarily Sailfish's fault.
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2015-04-29
, 17:58
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#358
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Hmm. It is true that I do not have a physical Jolla phone. (I happen to live in the hemisphere of the planet that does not yet enjoy the presence of Jolla devices.
You, sir, see the Jolla from your ivory tower. We use it on the ground.
)But let me ask this -- why do you have a Jolla phone? For what purpose are you using it? The Jolla phone is the first piece of hardware running the first version of a novel operating system created by a young startup company -- surely you can't have expected it to pop out of the box able to do everything other phones do, and without any bugs.
I probably have different expectations of what I want out of a phone than most folks on this board do. Personally, I've given up on the concept of a "smartphone"; particularly here in the US, the whole concept has become tied up into force-feeding expensive little locked-down pieces of hardware into user's hands that get replaced by newer little boxes every 24 months (or less). The whole thing is insane.
The solution I'm going for is to completely untie my mobile computing hardware from my mobile telephony hardware. I'll go ahead and get the cheapest handset my provider is trying to foist upon me, but I'm not going to bother buying apps or loading data onto it. Rather, I'll go ahead and keep all my personal data and personal programs on a device that I can manage myself.
And, this is what I'm looking for from Jolla (and why I'm much more excited about their tablet than their phone). It's a mobile device with a decent hardware set sporting both a decent Linux base and a decent user interface. They may or may not have good apps running on it yet; if they do, I'll be happy to use them. However, I'll also be happy to run the apps I've been using for the last twenty years on my desktop machines. And, I'll be even happier if I can continue to use those ancient apps in future mobile devices.
The cellular device world being crafted by Apple and Google today is amazing for what it provides; but, it is also closed, and therefore, stagnant. Someday, Apple and Google will move on from their current operating systems (or will disappear), and when that happens, the corresponding software ecosystem will be just as dead as the Windows 9x ecosystem. Or the MS-DOS ecosystem. Or the Mac OS 9 ecosystem. The only software from the days of my youth that is still regularly maintained and used in the present day is open-source software; everything else has long since been chucked into the dustbin.
Hmm. I think I've gotten off topic here. Let me see... Yeah, I guess I do see things from the "ivory tower" point of view; or, at least the long-term view. Bugs don't bother me. Missing functionality doesn't bother me. Eventually, such things get fixed or replaced. But, all the code Apple and Google have created, all the closed-source apps running on iOS and Android -- it's all trash. In five to ten years time, it'll all be dead and gone, just like all the closed source software that was written five to ten years ago.
Sailfish is riding on top of software that mostly isn't trash. It can run apps that are not trash. So yeah, I'm stoked about getting a Sailfish machine in the near future.
Last edited by Copernicus; 2015-04-29 at 18:04.
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2015-04-29
, 21:01
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Posts: 1,092 |
Thanked: 4,995 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ beautiful cave
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#359
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I find it still funny that some people are criticising things which they think that they are basic. Some of the points you point out are already solved. Not by Jolla but third party. And the other platforms had or have similar problems:
iphone 1: missing MMS
Android: as far as I know still missing native Caldav support.
Does Windows phone meanwhile support copy and paste in all areas? It's been a while since I've seen a Windows phone. The last time it didn't.
So what's the point if even Multimillion-Dollar-Companies doesn't support all the so called basic features.
By the way, I find it a basic feature to decide what I do with my phone.
iphone 1: missing MMS
Android: as far as I know still missing native Caldav support.
Does Windows phone meanwhile support copy and paste in all areas? It's been a while since I've seen a Windows phone. The last time it didn't.
So what's the point if even Multimillion-Dollar-Companies doesn't support all the so called basic features.
By the way, I find it a basic feature to decide what I do with my phone.
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2015-04-29
, 21:39
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Posts: 2,076 |
Thanked: 3,268 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
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#360
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Originally Posted by Fellfrosch
???
iphone 1: missing MMS
Android: as far as I know still missing native Caldav support.
Originally Posted by pichlo
Yup, now can confirm, nice find. Now if someone can reproduce the two layers bug consistently (had it like 4 times total, last time 3-4 updates ago, seems to be timing related or some racing conditions as it is rare, at least for me)
Then you need to start it in landscape twice in a row to get it again. Which may confuse some testers, including me
If I add all this together, I've gotta say, it sounds like what you really want is an Android phone. Google has invested billions (yes, billions) of dollars into this platform, so their OS is naturally feature-filled and well supported. Despite being based on Linux, they have built up a closed-source environment that is very friendly to software entrepreneurs, so quality paid apps abound. And by having their OS supported by multiple high-end manufacturers competing with one another, the hardware is insanely cheap.
Jolla is not, and will never be able to better (or probably even match) Google on these points. Even if Jolla was a 100x bigger corporation than it is now, it would not be able to beat Google on these points. (Heck, Nokia itself died trying to compete with Google on these points. Even after it gave up its own efforts and went with Microsoft's offering, it still couldn't beat Google on these points.)
In short: don't buy a Jolla device (or any other non-Android phone) if all you want is to use an Android device that isn't licensed by Google. You're never going to be satisfied.