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tso is offline tso
2008-09-23 , 20:50
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#381
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
(Interestingly, neither WinCE/mobile nor Symbian succeeded in creating a decent market for applications. In a fraction of the time, the iPhone did.)
their focus have been corp roadwarriors, not media hungry teens...
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2008-09-23 , 20:59
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#382
Originally Posted by sjgadsby View Post
Mr. Jaaksi said the code Nokia have contributed to Linux OMAP provides support for high speed packet data. He, and several other Nokia employees, very carefully and deliberately stated that Nokia have not provided code to support voice in this code drop. These same Nokia employees declined to say whether or not voice support for Maemo 5 would be added later.
Now that's interesting. I remember having seen a short video from the Q&A after the keynote and I thought I'd remembered something like a firm "data only" in regard to Maemo 5... I have to admit, though, that I can't recall the exact question, so it's interesting to learn that this answer could as well have been about the one specific piece of code they added to the kernel.

If this is so... and if maybe there is voice in the N900... the whole thing makes less and less sense to me. What's the strategy then? It'll be just another phone, not even a good one. I'll buy it anyway, I guess, I'll have been waiting for too long.
 
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ARJWright is offline ARJWright
2008-09-23 , 21:15
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#383
Originally Posted by sjgadsby View Post
Mr. Jaaksi said the code Nokia have contributed to Linux OMAP provides support for high speed packet data. He, and several other Nokia employees, very carefully and deliberately stated that Nokia have not provided code to support voice in this code drop. These same Nokia employees declined to say whether or not voice support for Maemo 5 would be added later.
This is a nugget. So nice to see da Ville making an impact here too
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qole is offline qole
2008-09-23 , 21:17
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#384
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
But first this is not new. Symbian and WinCE/mobile are also similar to the desktop paradigm. You can write your own applications for them. You can buy applications for them. The vendors do not control those applications.

(Interestingly, neither WinCE/mobile nor Symbian succeeded in creating a decent market for applications. In a fraction of the time, the iPhone did.)
I'm wearing out here, but I guess I should clarify a bit more. Symbian and WinCE/mobile are mobile-only OSes. Their application base is by necessity going to be limited, since developers can only write to that platform. The iPhone has some small advantage, since it is basically a stripped-down version of OSX. But all of these platforms are still not really good examples of what we will be getting here. They have small user bases, and developers have restrictions on what they can develop because of the vendors. The vendors on all these platforms really still do control the apps, no matter what anyone says.

The N8x0 (and even the 770), however, already can run many desktop Linux apps (via the Debian armel distro) without even recompiling. There are speed, screen size, and input issues with this current generation, but when the next gen tablets come out, with all the standard Linux framework in place to just run desktop Linux apps without porting or even much hassle... that huge user base necessary to make the desktop paradigm happen will already be there, in the form of the tens of thousands of apps sitting in the Debian (and probably Ubuntu by that point) repositories.

Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Second, I am not really sure that the N900 will be as open as you think. Dr. Ari Jaaksi had puzzling comments on the "necessities for open source developers to embrace paradigms necessary to the phone industry like drm and closed source".

No you are wrong.

It was made very clear at the summit that the closed-source stuff will not be the stuff that hampers developers, it will be the "differentiating" stuff, the things that give Nokia a bit of a competitive edge. So it will be the high level zippy graphical fluff, not the drivers and the low level things that developers need access to to make cool new apps.

Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Furthermore, you have been intoxicated by the PC/windows/linux model. Everyone here seem to ignore that a smartphone may be a computing platform, but it is not a pc. The pc model emerged in the 90s, before the Internet was popular, and the technological choices which were made at the time reflect that (and we all know what disastrous consequences some of those choices had). A smartphone, with limited battery and computing ressources, always on connectivity, high hardware variability, high bug resilience and designed for a market of non-specialists implies different choices. If you want to make some money, that is.
No no no no no no! You're not getting it!

THE N900 WILL BE A HANDHELD PC WITH A HD CAMERA AND HDSPA MODEM, NOT A SMARTPHONE.

Of course, the vendors need to make money, so there'll be stuff for sale, and there'll be some vendor-provided services and stuff. But the desktop paradigm that we'll be getting with the next-gen tablet says that you're going to get all sorts of unexpected third-party stuff happening.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to argue with you anymore. We'll just let time prove one of us right.
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gammer is offline gammer
2008-09-23 , 22:08
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#385
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
BTW: whats the big deal with multi-touch? I have never seen one single use case for it (no, zooming images doesn't count, that's sooo 2007). Except for being cool, what could be done with a multitouch interface that I can't do now? (Given also that I use one hand to hold the device...)
Maybe it's subtle. For instance, if you type fast with fingers on the onscreen keyboard then there are moments when one finger has not yet left the key and another finger is already on a key. Multitouch hardware could handle this and would make for a much better experience in this case.
 
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2008-09-23 , 23:18
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#386
Originally Posted by qole View Post
Anyway, I don't think I'm going to argue with you anymore. We'll just let time prove one of us right.
Welcome to the club!
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SD69 is offline SD69
2008-09-24 , 01:07
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#387
Originally Posted by qole View Post
The N8x0 (and even the 770), however, already can run many desktop Linux apps (via the Debian armel distro) without even recompiling. There are speed, screen size, and input issues with this current generation, but when the next gen tablets come out, with all the standard Linux framework in place to just run desktop Linux apps without porting or even much hassle... that huge user base necessary to make the desktop paradigm happen will already be there, in the form of the tens of thousands of apps sitting in the Debian (and probably Ubuntu by that point) repositories.
The "desktop paradigm" you've described is important, but it is important because it is needed to foster FUTURE software development designed with the NIT platform in mind. I certainly hope the primary goal of Maemo 5 is not to enable reuse of existing desktop apps (ugh!). The revolution of the tablets WAS that they hit that sweetspot where: 1) there is more mobility than a laptop (use it while standing in line kind of mobility) and yet 2) you have a decent Internet, online, experience nonetheless. Various aspects are arguably essential (and unigue) to the NITs - touch screen, optimum processing power/battery life tradeoff, UI, etc. Ported desktop apps would unacceptably degrade 2) and are not wanted.
 

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brontide is offline brontide
2008-09-24 , 01:50
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#388
Ok, reality time people...

The n900 is already "a day late and a dollar short"

The iPhone and Android are disruptive technologies, the n900 is a going to be late to the game and probably too expensive to be anything more than a niche like the previous tablets. Nokia may prove me wrong and debut the n900 for less than $400, but I doubt it.
 

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2008-09-24 , 03:10
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#389
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
Ported desktop apps would unacceptably degrade 2) and are not wanted.
Tell that to all the people that want OpenOffice or the Gimp on their tablet.

Originally Posted by brontide View Post
The n900 is already "a day late and a dollar short" ... the n900 is a going to be late to the game and probably too expensive to be anything more than a niche like the previous tablets. Nokia may prove me wrong and debut the n900 for less than $400, but I doubt it.
I hope you're wrong, but I fear you may be right.

As the euphoria of the Summit wears off a bit, it becomes very clear that Nokia has made a lot of vague teases and hopeful-sounding promises about the future, but not a whole lot of substance.

This is actually very much On-Topic: Dr. Jaaksi (et al) very proudly announced that they were dropping open-source code to coincide with OSiM and the Summit. But what exactly did they give us? Is there any hardware out there we can try out the HDSPA source code on? And what's with the "alpha-quality" wlan driver they gave us? Where's the real driver? You know, the one used on the tablet?

I'm being forced to trust that Nokia is going to Get It Right next time. Despite the fact that the IT was the most amazing piece of technology ever to be held in my hands, there is definitely the feeling that the tablets are amazing in spite of Nokia. I am still amazed that such devices came out of Nokia in the first place.

My conversations with Nokia employees and the presentations from some of the Nokia people made it clear to me that there's still a lot of the Big Old Corporation in Nokia, and the BOC is pushing back, hard, against the tablets and the whole maemo idea. I got the distinct impression that they're no Google when it comes to corporate culture. The presentation by the IT department showed that the tablets are used by a tiny portion of the Nokia employees, and that their internal attempts to use the tablets as a productivity tool have not met with a great deal of success.

Brontide, I hope you're wrong. I hope the new tablet's "shitload of processing power" (to quote, I think, Peter Schneider) and open architecture can make the impact that I hope will send ripples through the market. But the price has to be right, and Nokia has to stick to their promises, and most importantly, they've got to get it done fast. Time's winged chariot is right on their heels, and there's an avalanche of competition coming fast. I'm terrified that they're going to drop the ball here: some middle manager with a poor grasp of the situation and poor oversight from upper management is going to piddle away precious months making his people do the wrong stuff (this may have already happened, according to my sources), or some deal with a third party is going to fall through, or the telcos are going to arm-wrestle Nokia's money people to pull the plug on the whole project, or the marketing types, with no understanding of what this device actually is, are going to position the new tablet incorrectly, or they won't be able to get the price down to the point where it is affordable by the people who really need it, or, more importantly, the people who will be the best evangelists, ie the "hip" young technophiles...

Wow, this is a long post. I'm stopping now.
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2008-09-24 , 03:17
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#390
Originally Posted by qole View Post
The presentation by the IT department showed that the tablets are used by a tiny portion of the Nokia employees, and that their internal attempts to use the tablets as a productivity tool have not met with a great deal of success.
Wait wait wait-- that was publicly acknowledged??? By true Nokia employees???

If so-- whew! One more thing I can relax about...
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