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| The Following User Says Thank You to ragnar For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-06-10
, 10:05
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#32
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Don't know about you guys but I gave up on file manager (the Diablo one) long ago. As much as I dislike it, I just have Midnight Commander in the personal menu. Unsexy ? Yes. Console reminiscent ? Yes. Totally finger unfriendly ? Absolutely. Built in sshfs and ftp clients ? You bet ! Functional ? Hell, YES !
From what Quim wrote I'm under the impression they view files less and less as 'files' in the classical sense, and users are not supposed to muck around with them - it's the job of the application to handle them. I always hated that approach (mostly because the applications sucked big time at managing their own files) I understand the approach as an attempt to 'simplification' of resource management (for better or worse).
From what Quim wrote I'm under the impression they view files less and less as 'files' in the classical sense, and users are not supposed to muck around with them - it's the job of the application to handle them. I always hated that approach (mostly because the applications sucked big time at managing their own files) I understand the approach as an attempt to 'simplification' of resource management (for better or worse).
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2009-06-10
, 10:09
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#33
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Originally Posted by qwerty12
If you read through that bug report you will see that the boundaries for a fully supported and fully tested portrait mode for all widgets depends not only on Hildon (we could still handle that alone) but also probably on plain GTK+ (upstream code with different stakeholders, priorities and speed).
Here's another one - https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4618
I remember getting pissed off at Nokia because they wouldn't include the rotation patch into the Diablo kernel and xserver. But it would be a supported mode in Fremantle and that was, er, the end of that bug. Now, the bug above points out something wrong with the way Nokia's doing this implementation and it's a WONTFIX. The WONTFIX issue never bothered me before (say, except for the diablo rotation bug) but if Nokia are already giving out the WONTFIXes - for legit bugs - in their new OS, then they can **** off.
We have pushed the widgets and test cases that were essential for the applications we wanted to show in portrait mode, and I can tell they look "just normal" in Fremantle.
Automatic portrait mode for everything was never promised and we were clear in the Fremantle alpha release that landscape mode is default as usual and developers need to do specific work to get portrait mode as well.
The reasoning for the wontfix for Integrate screen rotation patches into stock kernel and X server stands: we don't think the Maemo UI is ready or even should behave in portrait mode in all cases. If some things go wrong in some cases that is perhaps ok for a community patch but not for a commercial release.
Landscape mode with optional portrait mode makes more sense for what Maemo is intended. Maybe in the future the Maemo specific UI and the upstream toolkit will be more portrait-ready, but this is not the reality we have now.
Said that, a developer willing to have a portrait or a landscape/portrait application with Maemo 5 can do it.
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2009-06-10
, 10:13
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#34
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Originally Posted by ragnar
Wait. Marketing gibberish aside, media and images are just files. Are you telling me that the File Manager is not an optimal UI for managing files???
Sure you can do that, but the File manager is not the optimal UI for it. The optimal UI for media is different from the optimal UI for images. The File manager UI optimizes for file management tasks whereas the applications optimize for the consumption tasks.
I/we don't certainly expect users to use the File manager for consumption tasks, because there is a far better UI for that elsewhere.
In general we have things like Tracker system etc. so that the users don't need to care about about file locations.
The file manager full UI is btw a different beast than the file selector dialog.
| The Following User Says Thank You to fms For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-06-10
, 10:17
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#35
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(this is what I was fearing when asking for separate threads for each problem)
At the end the file manager is an application just like the browser of the media player. If you don't like what comes pre-installed then you can try something else.
Originally Posted by fms
If you have 1000 files in single folders and you want to dive through them searching songs, videos or images then you can always find an alternative to the Maemo file manager, not intended for your purposes.
The Maemo file manager is obviously quite terrible at this task but it does not mean we are not supposed to do it, as users.
At the end the file manager is an application just like the browser of the media player. If you don't like what comes pre-installed then you can try something else.
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2009-06-10
, 10:18
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Posts: 4,274 |
Thanked: 5,358 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ Looking at y'all and sighing
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#36
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Originally Posted by qgil
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't Nokia already fork it and modify it where necessary?
but also probably on plain GTK+ (upstream code with different stakeholders, priorities and speed).
Originally Posted by qgil
I have (by and large) gotten over it not being included in Diablo (and I guess it does not matter any more as I do not see the "Software update notifier" blinking to tell me of a software update - not that I expect one) but in the hope that it'd be better in Fremantle.
The reasoning for the wontfix for Integrate screen rotation patches into stock kernel and X server stands: we don't think the Maemo UI is ready or even should behave in portrait mode in all cases. If some things go wrong in some cases that is perhaps ok for a community patch but not for a commercial release.
And we've seen what happens with community patches; why would anyone invest time into fixing Nokia's problems?
Originally Posted by qgil
Oh, they can (have a portrait app that is), but how many will looking at bugs like the one mentioned?
Said that, a developer willing to have a portrait or a landscape/portrait application with Maemo 5 can do it.
But, anyway, I thank you for giving me a calm answer considering the profanity in my original post.
Last edited by qwerty12; 2009-06-10 at 10:21.
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2009-06-10
, 10:24
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#37
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Originally Posted by fms
No, you have two Nokia employees that are spending a big chunk of their busy morning trying you to explain why things are designed and implemented the way they are.
What I find highly unusual is that we now have two Nokia employees in this thread trying to tell us that we are not supposed to manage files with the File Manager
Midnight Commander makes happy attila77 but won't make happy many users. Your solutions proposed here will make you happy but we believe they won't make happy many users. For instance, the file manager showing more entries means that each entry has less real estate, compromising finger usability.
Is it a coincidence that those of you complaining about the real estate usage of the file manager complain also about finger optimization vs stylus usage? Of course not. You are consistent with your priorities, and we try to be consistent with our priorities as well. Not easy to make everybody happy.
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2009-06-10
, 10:26
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Posts: 2,427 |
Thanked: 2,986 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#38
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On the subtopic of "item" sorting, I sure hope Maemo 5 uses a different technique for sorting bookmarks. The Maemo 4 bookmark sorting is so slow and uncommunicative that I consider it a bug.
__________________
N9: Go white or go home
N9: Go white or go home
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2009-06-10
, 10:35
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#39
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Originally Posted by qgil
It's not just the amount. The file manager tries to enforce a certain layout of your home directory. Which is cool for new guys, as they don't need to face the standard unix dir layout. Unfortunately there are just too many applications who do not respect this layout, which make a separate file manager (MC, emelfm) quite needed. And if you already have those, then file manager quickly becomes a stepchild.
If you have 1000 files in single folders and you want to dive through them searching songs, videos or images then you can always find an alternative to the Maemo file manager, not intended for your purposes.
EDIT:
Originally Posted by qgil
I understand that and at no point did I say everybody should use MC to achieve Maemo World Domination (TM). It was just a personal experience I wanted to share (for the record, I don't use/like MC on my desktop - it just fits my Maemo use-case better than the official File Manager). If you ask me what I would recommend (which you don't) I'd say have a basic (finger, fixed dir layout)/advanced(stylus, no dir layout restrictions) file manager mode. I think that would really bring World Peace in Maemo File Management. Midnight Commander makes happy attila77 but won't make happy many users. Your solutions proposed here will make you happy but we believe they won't make happy many users. For instance, the file manager showing more entries means that each entry has less real estate, compromising finger usability.
Last edited by attila77; 2009-06-10 at 10:43.
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2009-06-10
, 10:35
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#40
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Originally Posted by conny
Another problem hitting GTK+ limitations directly. Yes, Maemo choose to fork GTK+ in the past, the price was big and in Fremantle we have put a considerable effort into pushing any Maemo specific changes to GTK+ trunk as well. Anyway, that bug hasn't been resolved yet and is being investigated by GTK+ maintainers as we speak.
As I reported the two mentioned bugs, I have to say: I don't like it too
Here is another one which affects portrait mode:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4617
[QUOTE]Well basically this mean that the usage of the portrait mode is not recommended and if you (as developer) want to use it, you'll have to write (mostly) a complete new UI. Then if you still want to maintain the Diablo version you have to maintain 3 more or less different UIs:
Diablo / Fremantle landscape / Fremantle portrait.
That's not fun at all and I can see how developers will drop support for Diablo quite quickly...[/QUOTE
We are telling developers that landscape mode is default and recommended. This works well for Diablo compatibility. If you go portrait you will have extra work and you will create more gap between your Diablo version. If you are not happy about this, stick to landscape mode.
Again, it would help having real examples of Diablo applications that would benefit from seamless portrait mode without specific UI rework (if the application framework was perfect and prepared for that).
Not UI related, but another thing that wont get fixed in Fremantle:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2557
This is not planned for Fremantle. Setting target milestone to Harmattan, although it is not confirmed yet.
The request makes sense but its implementation is complex and we prefer to concentrate on other bugs/features first.
I/we don't certainly expect users to use the File manager for consumption tasks, because there is a far better UI for that elsewhere.
In general we have things like Tracker system etc. so that the users don't need to care about about file locations.