(don't forget Leste along with your mentions..)

and to a great degree I concur...

focusing on os's that currently run or can run on the n900
and focusing on the next advancement in maemo ...Leste...
which has the prospect of functioning on more than just the n900...
THAT will increase community numbers, maintainership, advancements etc...
the more devices Leste can run on means those device owners and predominantly those other device OS end users have the option of running maemo and hence ...join our community...

Some may see my posts on the issue as inflammatory and such talk threatens the viability of the neo900 project.. and so shouldn't be spoken...
I disagree very strongly...

the math is apparent.

pinning our hopes that the neo900 will be the successor to the n900...let alone help to keep the community or forum or OS alive ...
are way past laughable...
It is visibly un-doable ...
there aren't the numbers of devices to be produced to sustain a community or forum...
regardless of the poll ..
regardless of "yes" or "no" numbers...
stalled at ~350 pre order devices ...was the last "known" state of the numbers pried out of the team....where is that number now? ...5 years now and going?
more than double that figure was needed for the cost to begin to be feasible for the initial pre order end user...
according to the same missive...for the project to even be "a go" to begin the "next stage"....
forget even the thought of completion...THAT is leagues away...

both numbers ~350 or ~800 ...aren't advancing any community...any forum ..or any OS ...
or supporting ...or maintaining...
It isn't even a holding pattern with those numbers...
it is community collapse...

Many can continue to think that it is somehow the only way ...or the best way...or another way..

the numbers say different.

If the neo through all adversity gets made...
it is not a successor ...it is a one off..
with numbers insufficient to support any community.
It is just a bunch of guys with very expensive unique devices....

Back to the issue...
If the bulk of the community cannot afford this mad expensive device..
IF it ever gets finished...
Then it is for an elite who can afford it...
meaning that EVEN were it to be a success it would immediately differentiate a wealth class of users here...
Those few who have the ability to throw countless piles of coins at a device...
and the rest who can't.

From the beginning when the estimated costs were mounting...
I was becoming uncomfortable with that inevitable schism...
that kind of class system representing those who have the luxury to afford ...
and the majority who cannot and are excluded ...
I have always been VERY MUCH against.

Linux at it's heart is meant for everyone...accessible to everyone...
Increasingly I see new devices introduced...
Not just the neo....there are others as well...
devices that separate the wealthy from the poor and middle class ..so the poor and middle class cannot afford to run a free operating system...
Yes the cost of an independent startup is expensive ..
and it is not intended evil...in the class separation that it incurs ..
but it ends up being an ugly ugly scenario I wish no part of.

Devices everyone can afford ...running Linux ...
should always be the mandate..
Not class separation...
and those who can afford it ...get it...
and the rest are out of luck.

I think it isn't about keeping silent not to disturb the fragile project ..
I think it is about a lot of money and a lot of hope and a lot of energy that has most definitely been backing the wrong horse...on the wrong race track in the wrong country on the wrong planet.
It is an epic waste of resource, time, effort (by everyone) and funds that could have been put FAR more meaningfully elsewhere.

If I had a time machine ...knowing what I know now...
I would not have literally dumped in a non refundable pile on the neo900 fire...
I would have waited for the Leste project and donated it all to it's furtherance...


Ultimately continuing on this self destructive community course....
If we have no devices inevitably ...to run maemo ON ...
and everyone is looking at the neo as a white knight saving the OS and community....
and giving bare attention to the REAL elephant in the room... the
real necessity of getting maemo onto multiple alternate devices....
for our continued survival and increase of our community numbers...

then this place will soon need to be renamed ...
to ...
"...[Insert Flavor-Of-The-Month-OS/Device-Name-Here] Forum

because it is only a matter of time...

So ...I agree with immi...
to a GREAT degree...

I fail to see why having hope that the Neo900 eventually happens would hinder the development of these OSes. I am very happy that Leste and Postmarket OS are progressing and supporting more devices than just the N900, and I think it's great for the community too, but that doesn't make me think that the Neo900 is an impediment.

Continue to ignore portions of a post and cherry pick as much as you like from a post to satisfy whatever mandate you wish...
It does not negate all the other valid and logical points of a post or posts.

My three N900s are still alive and kicking.. but seldom used
"Thanks" to Whatsapp & co. I use a Motorola G3 already for a couple of years.
(my daugther (7) inherited the Jolla 1 and is very happy with it

Cheers!

Good morning, everyone,
Reading your comments reminded me of the good old days of spending a lot of time on the forum with the Nokia N900. I'm glad to see that some are still here, and that they haven't lost their sense of humour.
I looked at the evolution of the Neo900 from a distance, I had to say that I was waiting to see how it would take shape. Was I right? I don't know, one thing's for sure is that I was interested. Am I still? It's hard to say. The question is, will it be able to keep up with today's technological standards?
As for the N900, mine is still alive. I use it as a multimedia box when I clean at home. lol. It helps me out from time to time when I want to change a little of android. But it is that the time of a few hours, technological limitations are quickly felt compared to our needs today.
All that to say that I'm still interested in the N900 and maemo, but more by the idea of focusing on OSes.
As Endormeans said, if it brings people back on the forum, and rebuild a community I'm a taker.

Note: Translated from https://www.deepl.com/translator, check this translator, it is amazing

English is not my native language, but as far as I understand, cherry picking implies selecting information to prove someone wrong while neglecting contradictory evidence. Is that really what I did here? I was replying to the last two posts, i.e., immi.shk's comment and yours (since you said multiple times that you concur with him) because he said:

I am *very* happy that these exciting OS projects exist and I hope they develop fast, far, will be long maintained, and will attract as many people on TMO as possible. However, we can leave the Neo project all we want, that doesn't mean there will be more people working on the OSes (the Neo900 might even marginally contribute to the relevance of these alternative OSes).

This was my only point. Getting into a quote war for that would not do any good, in fact I don't even have any specific comments, or rebuttal list to come up with. Just wanted to say that the continuation of the Neo900 project and the development of PostmarketOS/Leste/DebiaN900/Arch for N900 are not mutually exclusive choices, and I believe presenting them as a crossroad is actually more fallacious than me posting a general comment without quoting what made me post it.

Now this is just my opinion and I'm genuinely happy to discuss or change my mind if I am missing something, I am not fighting, and I'm sorry to see the hostility in your last replies.

there is no hostility..
and there is no fight..

I have seen every argument pro and con over the years ...
and I have either said or heard every legitimate logical rebuttal there is..

In fact I said "to a great degree I agree.."with immi..
I do not fully or totally or absolutely agree with the opinion of abandonment of the neo project..
That shouldn't quite be up to us ..that kind of decision should first come from the project team ....

In fact ordinarily I would agree that os and device projects are great and not mutually exclusive..

the only hindrance I see to it is this:

every time a project that money has been dumped into here..
or even actual device produced ..
it either
A- falls apart before final product is achieved
or
B- succeeds... yet falls apart a different way through lack of foresight and follow through.. where the continued support and advancement from the finished product wasn't thought out..and hence abandoned...

This community has seen a lot of both ...from small enterprise and very large corp.
and it damages the community with every fail.
The list of members here who have commented on just that fact ..is long.
The difference with the neo project is..
the neo project hasn't just upped and folded...
Like all of them..

it hasn't stopped..
it goes into limbo for half a year or year ...quasi comes back ...to repeat the process...over again..
I cannot say that that makes it easier on people ..and I refer to everyone ...team or supporters or everyone else in the community...

A typical cycle that runs here is....
1 - project starts...
2 - project succeeds ...(but fails later with support / advancements)
or
2.1 - project fails...
3- time elapses ...
4- wounds heal...we get our feet back underneath us...get our second wind..
5- new different project announced..
6- we are ready to throw our best at it again.
7- rinse ...
8- repeat..

with the neo there has been no downtime to recover ...
it is an always present limbo

Bad enough it is when a project brings hope and doesn't make it...
That is hard...yup..but it is understandable...

But a project that never ever finishes...but keeps going ...with no end in sight..
That isn't better on the community psyche .

some would say that the damage done is by saying something to trouble the waters casting doubt ...that the Neo project should be given a limitless chance..
the flip side of this coin is that ...
the continuance of having a project never conclude is even more damaging...with far reaching ramifications to the community support of (completely un-associated) other projects in the future.

The neo has/had a right to take it's best shot and do it's best..
The neo project does not have a mandate to leave everyone in a state of limbo hampering the next project , setting future projects back, and damaging community belief in the furtherance of future projects ..

I cannot speak for others...
But this never ending neo has definitely impacted my immediate future backing of any project for a long time to come.
If someone came up with a great device right now and asked for backing...even if it was 200% foolproof and failproof..
I wouldn't. ...Most likely never again
If someone came up with a device and said it is done and for sale...
I still may not rise to it .

That is the collective impact of past project fails..
and the never ending current one.
on me...

Others may feel the same or differently ..

But really..the impact here goes beyond ..just ...
"support" or "don't"...

the long term impact on the community ..
is still playing out with this no-end-in-sight "neo dynamic"...

There are indeed countless examples on TMO of the cycle you describe, but it also is due to the fact that we are a small community to start with, and a community left with no device upgrade in years. This inevitably means developers are hard to keep on the long term, and even those that were very dedicated to Maemo/Meego/Sailfish may eventually stop maintaining their applications because the userbase is nearing zero, or because they need to use another OS or device for their personal use and can't be on every front at the same time.

To me it's a tad harsh and unforgiving to accuse the Neo900 to bear even the slightest responsibility for this vicious circle. The project is long overdue, and as time passes, its added value decreases (there will still be benefits in using a Neo900 though), communication has been a chronic issue, funding for final success is extremely uncertain, and the performance boost we wanted won't be ground-breaking now that we've been used to more performance. That I agree, but if we had to name what are the prime factors responsible for the erosion of the TMO community, I would certainly think about our beloved Stephen Elop, as well as the many companies that disregard anything that is not Android and therefore decide for us what one can or cannot do if not using the mainstream OS that generates the most profit per developer work hour*. The economic reasons are obvious and understandable, but the statement stands that it is not a step in the right direction for diversity beside Google and Apple, and for the long term health of the TMO community overall. The never-ending Neo900 project may contribute to losing faith among TMO members, but it's hard to support with evidence. Actually, the Neo900 is one of reasons why I keep checking TMO over the years (there are others, I'm still a Sailfish user and Maemo lover) because I will always be excited about any progress on this front even if it turns out I can't pay the final price; I will still think making this device happen will be an improvement for user privacy and a message showing that some people demand it.

Your willingness to invest money and kickstart a TMO-compliant project has been severely impacted, that is a very interesting point indeed. Many users have also invested in the Jolla Tablet, and/or its Youyota rebirth, and it's true that many have said they won't get tricked a third time. This is something I overlooked and you are right that the long Neo900 project is not helping, however I'm not totally certain that an announcement of a final and definitive failure would make those who invested feel better about future projects. At least at the moment there is still some hope, and the money was not stolen, which is kinda comforting.

* : I can't even pay parking in my 70k-inhabitant town without an Android device, and this town is on an island where free parkings do not exist. At all. How stupid is that. Then there are bank applications, some of them are mandatory to actually confirm transactions because the websites are by design meant just for monitoring while the phone is the key to interact. In the end, your OS can dictate if you can drive and park a car in your town, if you can improvise a bus trip instead (paper tickets are only available in selling points here, not in buses, only the Android application allows buying e-tickets at any time), what bank you can use, and we all have other examples of our own of applications that we want or even need, but can't use. These are some of the external pressures on the TMO community, together with the obsolescence of our devices (Neo900 tries/tried to do something here) and lack of official maintenance of Maemo/Meego and base applications (there is hope with Leste, Mer, PostmarketOS), everyday decreasing the number of users, developers and maintained applications. I doubt internal pressures like the Neo900 delays are causing significant population drops in comparison.

The Neo900 should happen, anyway.

Any hope to escape the Android prison would benefit in some small way
by whatever even a mere 67% success would achieve.

There is no downside to launching the Neo900.

Even now, so many years later,
the n900 is still the pinnacle to beat
which nothing on the market even comes close to.