That PCB looks quite thick, is that standard 1,6mm? Could you make TOHKBD thinner by making PCB thinner? I think 0,8mm would still be stiff enough. Even 0,6mm might do.

#prototype optimization is last step

(investigating this by the way, but pcb (fiberglass) stiffer than 3D printed material for same thickness, so thicker pcb could reduce thickness! #proto #notfinal #notimportantrightnow)
optimization is last step



not that i know of...

good idea kimmo, i'll build a lasercutter myself


anyway, second pcb out for manufacturing

Glad to see you're progressing fast, but it also means I need to empty my head before it's too late Everything that follows is just my opinion (nothing personal, against or for your keyboard ), but based on experience with various hardware keyboards.

Why do you intend to make it thinner? Jolla is already thin enough and why sacrifice comfort for few mm's (it looks like thickness is becoming the next megapixel or screen size)? Switching TOH's is easy, so when one wants to amaze someone by low thickness, (s)he can just put a different TOH on.

What is most important about a keyboard is A) its reliability and build quality and B) buttons recognizability and press feedback. Both are hard/impossible to achieve with the thickness hunt.

I am, sadly, not an owner of the TOHKBD#1, but from the pictures and videos (+customers' feedback), it very much seems like the build quality and typing comfort could be improven upon. On the other hand, I didn't notice any owner complaining about its thickness...

I noticed your first metal design and it looks to me like the keyboard of the original Moto RAZR or Nokia N93i. I know it is not the final design, but since you were considering it, I must say that I have owned the N93i and this type of keyboards is one of the worst. You can never be sure which button you are pressing and nearby keys were often pressed as well as the desired key, which was very, very frustrating.

We already have a flat screen. A flat keyboard creates no added value, in my opinion.

Cool, experienced people with constructive criticism and new ideas are very helpful! Lets go!

True. But I have a certain 'thickness increase' that is acceptable to me, within this boundary i am happy. Thicker than this unspecified number, i will not believe it is a good design and will conclude i will have to look for other solutions.

However, I have a trick up my sleeve to cope with this issue! I am experimenting with this as we speak, more on this in the future. I do not want to make anyone happy with a dead sparrow.

All important factors, but I think this varies for all users. Most of the requests I got with Rev1 were different keyboard layouts for example! Maybe an idea to put up a poll to make it easier for me to know what to focus on?

I think this is because all people that got a Rev1 knew in advance that is was a prototype product and hackishness all around. The keypad is not good, its too thick, unreliable, but hey it works!

This was indeed not a final design, the goal was to test the material and the production quality, which i am both not satisfied about. But it looked cool right? I would love a huge brushed aluminum keyboard, but this will require a lot of testing and thus a lot of dough (that keypad was 100 euros...)



Anyway, thanks for all the feedback! Please disagree with me and keep the discussion going. That is IMO the only way to get a good product. Come prepared with good arguments and examples, because I usually get a picture in my head about how it should look,feel and work and that picture is hard to change!


To end with a terrible idea:
Round better?

I am not as experienced as Nodevel, but I have a tohkbd1 so I might comment on his suggestions too! And like him, nothing personal, no fanboyism or hateboyism, just trying to contribute to the discussion while the final design is still being worked on.

The Jolla is indeed thin and one may think that a thick toh would be acceptable on it, as we all remember the thick design of the N900, how we thought "Hell it's thick!" when we first got it in hands, and then how we thought "It's the perfect form factor" shortly after. But the Jolla is large, very large. It's already difficult to put it in some pants' pockets. Large screen size + angular vertices + crazy thickness is not a good combination, one of them has to be taken care of to make the final design acceptable. Screen size cannot, neither angular vertices.

As a owner of the tohkbd1, I can say that the thickness is one of the main reasons why I can't keep this toh permanently on the Jolla. Of course it is not the only reason, and perhaps I would let it on if keys were more reliable and if the plastic part was less conspicuous (black, or white but with better finition and no gaps between it and the Jolla; right now the plastic part is not parallel to the Jolla and it makes it even thicker, and even more conspicuous when people are around). That is not a critic Dirkvl, we all knew it was a prototype and I think you didn't read any complaints from me! Of course there was a bit of disappointment, but a lot of excitation too, and a huge a mount of hope for future revisions because, hell, it's working! But even if the keyboard was more functional and less conspicuous, it would still be very hard to put a Jolla with it in some pants' pockets. A thinner design would definitely be a progress, especially as the Motorola Droid's keyboard that has been used is an almost-flat keyboard anyway, consequently having limited tactile feedback anyway.

I am definitely with you on that point. But I guess the sweet spot has to be found between limited thickness and and tactile feedback of the keys. The N900's keyboard had a great button recognazibility in my opinion due to the dome-shaped keys, yet a rather thin profile. I don't own a E7, but its keyboard seem interesting too from the pictures i see, and it could work with a metal design from Dirkvl if such keys (E7 or similar) and domesheets can be purchased. This is what I thought would be interesting when I first saw the metal prototype Dirkvl has posted: he is able to cut holes in a metal plate, so then why not considering these keyboards which should have a good key recognazibiliy? Even if I like the N900 keypad, it would be a bit tiny for the Jolla, and still hard to find parts. For instance, the Samsung S5330's domesheet are easily found on the internet, and if accuracy of DIrkvl's machine a cuttign holes (in metal or plastic plates) is good enough, could that be a relevant solution?

[Edit] I realize the Samsung is a tiny phone so the keyboard would be small too, but why not cutting the domesheet to adjust spacing of the keys to the Dirkvl's PCB and Jolla size?

That is true, but Dirkvl is right too here: there weren't much complains at all because it's a prototype and we're sure Dirkvl put a lot of sweat in that project, and finally delivered a working tohkbd (apart for some keys sometimes ), but the keyboard would be better and more useable if thinner, more comfortable, and available in several layouts.

I agree here too, I'm glad Dirkvl is not considering that totally-flat design as the way to go!

Hm... if you are in Delft, Revelation Space in Spoorlaan 5, Den Haag shouldn't be too far.

Sorry for insisting

thanks! they have a laser-cutter, but that can not cut through metal. it can engrave in ham though!

Due to various reasons, I missed the OHKBD1 train and don't want to miss this 2nd train.

I know the OHKBD1 had little problems (of course, it's a kind of prototype) and now, as I can read in the posts, it works.
These little problems made this OHKBD1 amazing, because was the first keyboard for Jolla and who purchased it, as a consequence, taked part in the project.

Indeed the OHKBD2 will be better and, in regards to the thickness, my pocket still can assume several extra millimeters: I came from a HP Pre, without edges, and it was little in comparison with the Jolla; for me the most important reason for the change was the OS.

Conclusion 1: I'm interested in buy a TOHKBD2
Conclusion 2: size does'n matter

Ok, good that you have that covered

And what comes to that thickness conversation. I also think that TOHs should be as thin as possible, because Jolla is quite big phone.

I know there's a laser cutter in my place ... this could be a nice exercice to try it out ... if you can mentor me ... dont be hurry too I dont have lot of free time for this project ...

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http://rzr.online.fr/q/diy