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2008-02-28
, 16:50
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Posts: 67 |
Thanked: 13 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
@ U.S.A.
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#32
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Originally Posted by Benson
Yes, that would be my speculation. The existence of bluetooth is largely justified by the fact that it consumes only a small fraction of energy that wifi does.
I guess I'd be more concerned with power usage figures on the wifi itself? It uses CPU to drive it, of course, but I expect more of the power is directly consumed.
I've also noticed after using wifi on a Palm TX for a while, the device gets very warm (ie. wasted energy). The device does not heat up for non-wifi use (that is, BT use or hours of navigational use). This suggests the waste is in the wifi radios themselves, not necessarily by way of CPU workload.
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2008-02-28
, 17:14
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Posts: 3,841 |
Thanked: 1,079 times |
Joined on Nov 2006
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#33
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A lot of the waste related to wi-fi is in how the chipsets handle (or doesn't handle) power saving mode. On the NIT the chip drops to power saving mode after only a few hundred milliseconds, and as most of the data traffic is in bursts anyway it'll stay in power-saving mode most of the time in practice. If you turn it off, or change the timing (which may be necessary for some troublesome routers) your NIT will get warm too, and battery time dramatically reduced.
The SDIO wi-fi card I used to have for my T3 got hot too, and the T3 could only take about 20 minutes of wi-fi on before the battery almost kneeled.
The SDIO wi-fi card I used to have for my T3 got hot too, and the T3 could only take about 20 minutes of wi-fi on before the battery almost kneeled.
__________________
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
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2008-02-28
, 17:32
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Posts: 67 |
Thanked: 13 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
@ U.S.A.
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#34
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Originally Posted by Texrat
OpenMoko demonstrates that these devices can be released w/out closed components. You may be correct in the fact that closure of Nokia's hardware is a hindering factor to releasing an open OS -- but my "complaint" in that regard didn't come with any stipulation that the hardware be simultaneously closed. I would simply consider closed hardware another deficiency to circumvent.
Jgombos, you are comparing apples and oranges when you invoke OpenMoko. Nokia hardware is closed.
Originally Posted by Texrat
That's indeed favorable if it's true. It would mean less work for Mamona. But it sounds like BT and wifi are closed drivers.
I don't see that changing. Plus, there were components involved from the outset that had no open source drivers or other means of access.
Originally Posted by Texrat
That may be true, but the connection isn't obvious to me. Certainly Adobe would not have been able to hold the NIT back. Which closed source vendor getting a piece of the action would have caused the show stopper?
Again, going 100% open would have meant that the Nokia tablets available now would not have been deployed.
Originally Posted by Texrat
In the absence of a link, I'm not compelled to accept that (since I already tried searching before I introduced the thread).
Also, my statement about the subject being discussed numerous times is 100% correct.
Originally Posted by Texrat
Actually I wasn't referring to an alternative that would access shockwave pages, but an alternate (open) technology altogether: DHTML. It's a red herring anyway, since Flash is not an essential component. I don't believe most linux distros come with flash.. it's generally a separate plugin. Certainly the inclusion on flash in the image is not essential to NIT success.
As for flash, the GPL equivalent is a bit behind the commercial, is it not? Either way, that leads to a tangential argument that I won't indulge. It is what it is.
Originally Posted by Texrat
The latter would only be paranoia in the absence of commercial players. Since it's a mixed bag, of course the commercial players will look after their interests - we can count on that. Surrender of the mac address was not expressed as a means of "device registration", so no, I don't have a reason to trust their use of the information. Therefore, I will use the windows tool to download images.
EDIT: I find it interesting and ironic that you want increased openness from a commercial manufacturer like Nokia and then express fears of lawsuits over a simple, innocuous device registration. If you examine that dichotomy objectively, isn't the latter paranoia?
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2008-02-28
, 17:46
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Posts: 67 |
Thanked: 13 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
@ U.S.A.
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#35
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Originally Posted by polossatik
That's a good point. I think when someone told me it was open source linux, I mislead myself from there.
The Nokia tablet is a "form factor experiment" of Nokia, the target of it is not GNU / linux / <insert any other form license> opposite to for example openmoko or GP2X .
Originally Posted by polossatik
From the utilitarian standpoint, yes, this is a very good thing. But the deontologist need not applaud; Nokia is not tossing the GNU community a bone as a favor, they are looking to use the GNU community to add value to their product. And there's nothing wrong with that motivation, but call it what it is.
The fact that Nokia is trying to make a working business model based on (partial) GPL software is only to be applauded as it will only give more credibility to the opensource/gnu/.... "movement".
Originally Posted by polossatik
OTOH, if the TV was advertised as open source w/ customizable DVR, and the buyer discovers the DVR API is closed enough that they can't create what they want (a widget to cut out commercials) they might not be as impressed as they were initially.
bootnote: I never heard someone not buying a TV because their TV firmware was not "opensource"...
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2008-02-28
, 18:05
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Posts: 5,335 |
Thanked: 8,187 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Pennsylvania, USA
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#36
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Originally Posted by jgombos
I did a quick search, and here's links to a few threads relating to the closed portions of the tablet firmware:
In the absence of a link, I'm not compelled to accept that (since I already tried searching before I introduced the thread).
- http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=11031 - discussion of proprietary kernel modules on the tablets and the GPL compliance of same
- http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=5613&page=15 - similar discussion with some additional details on which bits of the tablet software are closed
- http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=11066 - discussion of possibility that Nokia followed in NVIDIA's tracks on binary blobs
- http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=10997&page=2 - discussion of binary blobs in relation to holding up getting Ubuntu Mobile on the tablets
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2008-02-28
, 18:08
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Posts: 868 |
Thanked: 474 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Capital District, NY, USA
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#37
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Originally Posted by jgombos
OpenMoko uses binary blob AGPS driver that outputs NMEA for gpsd.
OpenMoko demonstrates that these devices can be released w/out closed components. You may be correct in the fact that closure of Nokia's hardware is a hindering factor to releasing an open OS -- but my "complaint" in that regard didn't come with any stipulation that the hardware be simultaneously closed. I would simply consider closed hardware another deficiency to circumvent.
OpenMoko still doesn't even have Wifi.
OpenMoko is still in development and may never see a production run.
So I don't think Nokia should be using OpenMoko as an example of how to do things right. Nokia have been bringing IT's to the market since 2005 with very little closed source material. I sure wouldn't mind if they opened up some of the nokia developed code like the connection manager, but at least the device works.
Update: I also found this on the hardware page.
CALYPSO digital baseband
Unfortunately we cannot provide many details on the GSM chipset due to very tight NDAs.
Last edited by brontide; 2008-02-28 at 18:30.
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2008-02-29
, 10:06
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Posts: 3,841 |
Thanked: 1,079 times |
Joined on Nov 2006
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#38
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Even though I mentioned the closed wi-fi driver and other drivers in an earlier posting, I think the _real_ problem, one that actually affects us, is the closedness of important parts of the UI and the provided software.
__________________
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
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2008-02-29
, 12:08
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Posts: 126 |
Thanked: 23 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
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#39
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Originally Posted by jgombos
I strongly disagree with your suggestion that Nokia may be "abusing" the "gnu community" for own profit. The main point of GNU is that it's FREE (not as in free beer). So no-one can complain that anyone is using it "for their own gain" - that's inherent to the whole GNU thing itself.
That's a good point. I think when someone told me it was open source linux, I mislead myself from there.
From the utilitarian standpoint, yes, this is a very good thing. But the deontologist need not applaud; Nokia is not tossing the GNU community a bone as a favor, they are looking to use the GNU community to add value to their product. And there's nothing wrong with that motivation, but call it what it is.
OTOH, if the TV was advertised as open source w/ customizable DVR, and the buyer discovers the DVR API is closed enough that they can't create what they want (a widget to cut out commercials) they might not be as impressed as they were initially.
From the other side the uptake of GNU/Linux by company's like Oracle, IBM , Nokia etc did boost the credibility of GNU/linux as a whole and provoked exposure and investments from big $$ company's, leading to more investments in GNU/opensource and provoking added value to the GNU community itself, which is what the whole GNU thing is about AFAIK.
The whole "stallman GNU ideology" vs the more pragmatic "let's simply get things done" (aka Linus) is nicely documented in the "revolution OS" documentary by the way.
I agree with your TV example, but for example any TV that simply say's "build on/using Linux" does NOT imply that *everything* is "open source" in that system.
Last edited by polossatik; 2008-02-29 at 12:12.
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2008-02-29
, 14:20
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Posts: 3,841 |
Thanked: 1,079 times |
Joined on Nov 2006
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#40
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Hm, what jgombos wrote (included what's in the quote) didn't come over to me at all like you interpret it.. he said ".. and there's nothing wrong with that..", which IMO is quite far from "..your suggestion that Nokia may be 'abusing' the 'gnu community'". Certainly there's nothing else in that quote which supports that.
__________________
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
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-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
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