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2009-04-30
, 16:14
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Posts: 4,783 |
Thanked: 1,253 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ norway
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#32
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ah yes, i keep forgetting about them moving that dpad. another reason to hang on to my N800 
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2009-04-30
, 16:25
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#33
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Originally Posted by tso
I perceive kinetic scrolling as a sort of page-up/page-down. Some people don't use PgUp/PgDn, others do it all the time. Same for kinetic scrolling. From a usability standpoint I would prefer drag-zooming (<shameless plug>like in pyqtoreader</shameless plug>), but hey, kinetic looks cool, and if it's cool it must be good.
i cant see the comfort in it...
sure, scrolling a long page by hand gets tiresome, but thats what the dpad is for, imo
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2009-04-30
, 16:34
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Posts: 4,783 |
Thanked: 1,253 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ norway
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#34
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Originally Posted by attila77
ah, yes, the rule of cool. that somehow explains the whole concept of apples marketing...
but hey, kinetic looks cool, and if it's cool it must be good.
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2009-04-30
, 18:33
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#35
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Originally Posted by tso
in fact: that's what a scrollbar is for. no matter how long a page is, you'll always get to any part of it with one single gesture in no time. no holding down the d-pad forever, no kinetic scrolling... again... again... still not there....ooops! too far.
sure, scrolling a long page by hand gets tiresome, but thats what the dpad is for, imo
it's efficient. that's even better than "cool".
Last edited by benny1967; 2009-04-30 at 18:51.
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2009-04-30
, 18:40
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Posts: 1,101 |
Thanked: 1,185 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Spain
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#36
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Originally Posted by attila77
It is not cool, it is ergonomic. Kinetic makes very easy and efficient to move through a page bigger than the screen, by using a very natural hand/wrist movement.
but hey, kinetic looks cool, and if it's cool it must be good.
Methods like pushing buttons on those tiny devices force the fingers to adopt non natural positions or angles while applying force, which in turn causes tendon strain, and pain in the end.
Non kinetic scrolling with the stylus like microb is very suboptimal, since moving through a big page takes a very long number of strokes (and microb scrolling responsivity is far from good). It also implies some tendon stress, since those prolonged strokes are done with more strength than quick strokes, and more strength is required to grip the device.
Finally, kinetic scrolling allows more feedback because the user sees a continuous flow of the page, with a speed response similar to what is expected in the "physical" world (that is why it seems "cool")
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2009-04-30
, 18:51
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Posts: 4,556 |
Thanked: 1,624 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#37
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Not a huge fan of Kinetic scrolling. Half the time (from using it in Tear, Canola, Mediabox, or my cousin's iPhone) I have trouble getting it to go where I want. It's useful for long movements, but for short movements I prefer a scrollbar. But the ones in Maemo are to small so I used a finger friendly theme which makes scrollbars bigger.
__________________
Originally Posted by ysss
They're maemo and MeeGo...
"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...
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2009-04-30
, 20:24
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#38
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Originally Posted by maacruz
It is cool. There is no need for the image to 'coast'. You could land at the extrapolated end position immediately, just as page up or page down does not need to animate the scroll. Kinetic, as in animated method of scrolling, is meant to be cool.
It is not cool, it is ergonomic.
Kinetic makes very easy and efficient to move through a page bigger than the screen, by using a very natural hand/wrist movement. Methods like pushing buttons on those tiny devices force the fingers to adopt non natural positions or angles while applying force, which in turn causes tendon strain, and pain in the end.
Non kinetic scrolling with the stylus like microb is very suboptimal, since moving through a big page takes a very long
)Finally, kinetic scrolling allows more feedback because the user sees a continuous flow of the page, with a speed response similar to what is expected in the "physical" world (that is why it seems "cool")
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2009-04-30
, 23:09
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Posts: 341 |
Thanked: 607 times |
Joined on Dec 2008
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#39
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Originally Posted by attila77
That's nonsense. Without actually seeing what happens, it would be extremely hard to learn the amount of force required to land at the desired position. Moreover, regularly you have no idea where you want to scroll to, so you want to see the contents while they pass by. Last but not least, the animation allows you to stop the scrolling, when you see that you arrived at the desired position.
It is cool. There is no need for the image to 'coast'. You could land at the extrapolated end position immediately, just as page up or page down does not need to animate the scroll. Kinetic, as in animated method of scrolling, is meant to be cool.
Like most animations in modern GUIs, the "wow factor" is merely a byproduct. Useless animations don't impress anybody anymore. But some people regard every animation as useless, and that's just plain wrong. Fortunately, not everybody is a UI designer.
Again, there are not just two ways of scrolling content. See pyqtoreader - it's faster and more precise than kinetic scrolling. Kinetic is just hero of the day, there are plenty other methods of scrolling (stylus based or other) that can replace it one day (given apple does a fancy implementation of them
I can't install pyqtoreader right now, so that is not telling me anything. It would certainly be interesting to discuss alternative methods of scrolling, and especially which of them may be as universally useful and intuitive as kinetic panning.
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2009-04-30
, 23:47
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Posts: 1,101 |
Thanked: 1,185 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Spain
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#40
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Originally Posted by attila77
No way. Kinetic is meant to be usable. With page up/down you move the page by big integer units, so the extrapolated end position may easily end too up or too down, then you'll have to scroll more (key up/key down) at constant speed to center the content. It is very easy not to get to the desired position if you don't know where it is, too, leading to repeated searches up and down.
It is cool. There is no need for the image to 'coast'. You could land at the extrapolated end position immediately, just as page up or page down does not need to animate the scroll. Kinetic, as in animated method of scrolling, is meant to be cool.
This is plain wrong. You cannot compare two specific implementations and draw conclusions about the physical interfaces in general. If it has a button, it must cause strain and if it's a stylus/finger it never does that ? Doesn't sound plausible to me at all.
By buttons here, I mean physical buttons, as n810 keys/dpad/etc, where the size, position and stiffness of those buttons is of great importance. What is more, we are talking here in the context of some particular devices, so I'm not going all general. The case of the n810 is a clear example, trying to use its keyboard, given the way the device must be hold and the fingers posture over the keyboard, will cause trouble after a relatively short time.
The use of GUI "buttons" is a different matter, since the strength needed in a touchscreen is lower. Here prolonged postural issues may be more relevant, depending on how the device is/must be hold and if/how the stylus is/must be used, influenced by usability issues like GUI element size, device/GUI responsiveness, repetitivity, etc.
Again, there are not just two ways of scrolling content. See pyqtoreader - it's faster and more precise than kinetic scrolling. Kinetic is just hero of the day, there are plenty other methods of scrolling (stylus based or other) that can replace it one day (given apple does a fancy implementation of them
So, if a more usable/ergonomic method replaces it, I'll welcome it.
Umm, and you cannot do continuous 'flow' scrolling with scrollbars, buttons, drag-zooms, or other methods ? I'm afraid I don't get it.
About scrollbars, on a device like NITs/ipod/iphone it is imprecise and jerky (stylus positioning, long pages), takes screen real state, and element size and/or position may make them really difficult to use. GUI buttons have some of those issues too. Hard buttons, see issues about tendon strain.
About "drag-zooms" (drawing a box by clicking and then dragging the opposite vertex and zooming the box content), I fail to see how it relates to scrolling.
About your pyqtoreader, unfortunately I'm not able to install it (some issue with python-qt4-* package versions that apt-get doesn't like), so I cannot comment on the scrolling methods you have implemented.
This I tell you, when the first time I've used kinetic scrolling is in microb webkit addon and tear.
The problem you have (and so do I), is an implementation "bug" in tear (remember myself to file a bug), link action should only happen after confirming there wasn't a drag action.
About the dpad, it is unusable in the n810 (damned designers playing games with keyboard alignment)