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	Halftux	2014-08-02 , 06:56
	Posts: 868 \| Thanked: 2,516 times \| Joined on Feb 2012 @ Germany	#31

I found some usblan adapters with 120mA posted from RPI guys who had some problem with a kernel bug. So I dont know if they will work.

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biketool	2014-08-02 , 17:56
Posts: 1,424 \| Thanked: 2,623 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Touring	#32

The blue USB-eth one from that link with 120ma/h has a thread somewhere on TMO, I had one, the driver is not in KP.

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	peterleinchen	2014-08-02 , 19:52
	Posts: 4,118 \| Thanked: 8,901 times \| Joined on Aug 2010 @ Ruhrgebiet, Germany	#33

I never ever got that d*mn blue (but all colors available) DM9601 thing to work ...

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	Estel	2014-08-03 , 04:20
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#34

Once, I've asked Pali to include that driver (IIRC, it works, when compiled as a module). For some reason, Pali wasn't interested, until someone can work in a brain-dead patch for KP that would include it. He said that having it work as a loadable module is one thing, and having it released with KP is another, and would require much work.

Scratch it if I'm writing nonsense, I don't know anything about how integrating module in kernel works from theoretical point of view.

/Estel

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chill	2014-08-03 , 08:36
Posts: 252 \| Thanked: 221 times \| Joined on Jul 2010	#35

Originally Posted by Estel

if you want to determine what is causing massive power drainage while using usb-rj45 adapter, ...
Well, our hostmode implementation isn't a "reference one" - damn you Nokia for carrying about some stupid certification, and pulling out official hostmode support on the last moment. As a result, the fact that we have hostmode at all - even with it's speed limited by unknown reasons to under what's our WiFi offers, constant high-speed problems, and such - it's a miracle.

/Estel

I just tried to do a powertop test, and while I was messing around with powertop, learning to fix the segmentation fault etc, the device shut down, undoubtedly due to a drained battery.

I'll try again later.

So if it's indeed a miracle and it looks like nothing can be done to improve the situation consumption-wise, then I should proceed with the external power idea. To clarify, my plan is to power the USBEth adapter with a USB hub, or get the Syba adapter+hub thing, and put the N900 in "host with charging" mode. The N900 thus won't be putting out (big) current, so the battery won't drain.

Additionally, I'd like to charge the N900 while I'm powering the USBEth adapter, but it's hard to tell if any given USB hub will charge the host that's attached to it. The Syba device will not, according to Syba.

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Last edited by chill; 2014-08-03 at 09:20.

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	Estel	2014-08-04 , 01:16
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#36

Syba will not on it own, but everything - no matter if it want it or not - will charge N900 at the time of hostmoding, if you use USB Y-cable. Thanks to it, you connect +5V charging device (aka any_usb_charger) in parallel (with first USB device from N900 side, in this case, a network adapter or hub) to N900, and it is it.

This way, you can charger N900 while using any USB peripherial, even without hub, as long as N900 is able to give enough current to, at least, enumerate that device - because, you need to enumerate first and then, ONLY then, attach external power to Y-cable. Other way, enumeration will fail (no hardware risk, just no working connection).

All things that require more than 200mA current to even enumerate (some external hard drives, for example) require powered hub, as those may have power attached before enumerating client. Hub is required too - obviously - if you want to use more than one device at the same time.

I've got my small, ultra-lightweight powered hub for something like 2USD (charger not included, but hacking it to charge from any other 5V power source is a piece of cake), so it's rather feasible to just use one, and carry it alongside N900.

/Estel

Last edited by Estel; 2014-08-05 at 06:52.

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chill	2014-08-04 , 21:41
Posts: 252 \| Thanked: 221 times \| Joined on Jul 2010	#37

Originally Posted by Estel

Syba will not on it own, but everything - no matter if it want it or not - will charge N900 at the time of hostmoding, if you use USB Y-cable. Thanks to it, yoiu connect +5V charging device (aka any_usb_charger) in parallel (with first USB device from N900 side, in this case, a network adapter or hub) to N900, and it is it.

This way, you can charger N900 while using any USB peripherial, even without hub, as long as N900 is able to give enough current to, at least, enumerate that device - because, you need to enumerate first and then, ONLY then, attach external power to Y-cable. Other way, enumeration will fail (no hardware risk, just no working connection).

All things that require more than 200mA current to even enumerate (some external hard drives, for example) require powered hub, as those may have power attached before enumerating client. Hub is required too - obviously - if you want to use more than one device at the same time.

I've got my small, ultra-lightweight powered hub for something like 2USD (charger not included, but hacking it to charge from any other 5V power source is a piece of cake), so it's rather feasible to just use one, and carry it alongside N900.

/Estel

Ok, that's pretty useful info.

But let me get this straight. You recommend using a Y-splitter USB cable and any_charger_cable to power the peripherals and, simultaneously, the N900. However, you are not using a Y-splitter yourself - you use a powered hub to charge the peripherals, which implies that the N900 is not simultaneously charged. Correct?

Also, will the N900 be charged - no matter if it want it or not - even if the selected mode is not USB host+charging?

Also, what do you mean by "it's rather feasible to just use one"?

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	Estel	2014-08-05 , 07:16
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#38

Originally Posted by chill

Ok, that's pretty useful info.

But let me get this straight. You recommend using a Y-splitter USB cable and any_charger_cable to power the peripherals and, simultaneously, the N900. However, you are not using a Y-splitter yourself - you use a powered hub to charge the peripherals, which implies that the N900 is not simultaneously charged. Correct?

No, sorry for the confusion. Is use Y-splitter cable (to be precise, a femal-to-female USB adaptor, with additional cable soldered to +5V and ground USB pins) for every hostmode use. N900 is on the one end of such cable, as a host.

then, on the other end, I may have either device itself, or a powered or un-powered hub. In all those cases, I can charge N900 simultaneously, by plugging the "3th end" of Y-cable into power source, and selecting hostmode+charging.

Hoever, this way you can't use peripherals, that require more than 200 mA current to even enumerate - because you may connect "3th end" of Y-cable (and select hostmode_charging) only after device got successfully connected, already. No device will enumerate, if +5V from external source is present already, you may connect it only AFTER you have device connected and visible by system (as stated in hostmode "manual").

For such cases (devices that draw more than 200 mA to even enumerate properly), USB hub is a must. It doesn't have anything to do with using Y-cable, you still need one for charging devices. BTW, powered USB hubs should *never* charge host device that they're connected to - if they do (I saw some that do), it is implementation fault. They shouldn't put current "upstream".

Now, if your passive (non-powered) hub (or active one, which doesn't have charger connected, so act as a passive at the moment) follows specification strictly, it *won't* give more than 100 mA to connected peripherals. It is because passive hub is powered by other usb host (normally, up to 500 mA), so it reserver 100 mA for itself, and gives 100 mA for every of fours possible clients. Now, most hubs are internally manufactured to allow connecting of 4 peripherals, no matter, how many ports they have in reality. 7-port hubs have seven ports not incidentally - they're two hubs connected in series, internally.

There are many passive hubs, that doesn't follow specifications strictly - and they will give every peripherals as much current as they need even in passive mode, as far as they got enough power from "upstream". Normally, they're worse choice (as they will flop if, for example, you connected them to PC, and 4x 500mA-requiring USB hard disks). Hoever, for N900, they're better, as they allow you to have the same functionality as powered hub, just by using Y-cable, as described earlier.

In case you don't have such hub, you must use "officially" powered one. There are some, that act as powered when connected to charger, and as passive, otherwise. They're most flexible ones, and I would recommend those.

Originally Posted by chill

Also, will the N900 be charged - no matter if it want it or not - even if the selected mode is not USB host+charging?

No, see above.

Originally Posted by chill

Also, what do you mean by "it's rather feasible to just use one"?

With USB hub - passive or active - you may connect peripherals on the fly, without going through the enumerating process on the N900's side. You just enumerate hub once, and it is it, you just connect peripherals to hub, and hub does enumerating, internally, for you.

That is why I've said it is feasible - as in practical, convenient, and not expensive - to carry a small hub with your N900 all the time, when you expect needing to do hostmode.

/Estel

// Edit

To make thins easier to understand, here is the idea schematic:

Code:

                               _________
                           ___| +5V     |___
    _______       ________<USB| USB     |___
   [N900   ]     /            |_Charger_|
   [_______]    / Y-Cable
 --[qwerty_]   /  3th end    __________
|             /             |USB Client|
|   ___  ____|___ ___       |    or    |
 --<USB||ADAP|TOR|USB>------| USB HUB  |
                            |__________|
         (Female
            to
          Female)

Last edited by Estel; 2014-08-05 at 08:05.

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chill	2014-08-06 , 00:57
Posts: 252 \| Thanked: 221 times \| Joined on Jul 2010	#39

Good info again, thanks. I have a few small questions, if you don't mind, esp. after reading the threads about h-e-n and the likes:

Originally Posted by Estel

No, sorry for the confusion. Is use Y-splitter cable (to be precise, a femal-to-female USB adaptor, with additional cable soldered to +5V and ground USB pins) for every hostmode use. N900 is on the one end of such cable, as a host.

then, on the other end, I may have either device itself, or a powered or un-powered hub. In all those cases, I can charge N900 simultaneously, by plugging the "3th end" of Y-cable into power source, and selecting hostmode+charging.

Hoever, this way you can't use peripherals, that require more than 200 mA current to even enumerate - because you may connect "3th end" of Y-cable (and select hostmode_charging) only after device got successfully connected, already. No device will enumerate, if +5V from external source is present already, you may connect it only AFTER you have device connected and visible by system (as stated in hostmode "manual").

Ok, I guess this is because the N900 can supply no more than 200 mA (this I got from my reading elsewhere).
Not to doubt you, but could you point to the "manual"?

I guess you mean no device will enumerate if external +5V is presented to the N900 while you're trying to enumerate.

Originally Posted by Estel

For such cases (devices that draw more than 200 mA to even enumerate properly), USB hub is a must. It doesn't have anything to do with using Y-cable, you still need one for charging devices.

Ok, so reading this and the below, you need a powered hub for these >200mA devices. This is because a) they cannot get >200mA from the N900, and b) the >200mA they could get from a +5V external source via the y-cable would not allow for enumeration on the N900. Correct?

Originally Posted by Estel

BTW, powered USB hubs should *never* charge host device that they're connected to - if they do (I saw some that do), it is implementation fault. They shouldn't put current "upstream".

Now, if your passive (non-powered) hub (or active one, which doesn't have charger connected, so act as a passive at the moment) follows specification strictly, it *won't* give more than 100 mA to connected peripherals. It is because passive hub is powered by other usb host (normally, up to 500 mA), so it reserver 100 mA for itself, and gives 100 mA for every of fours possible clients. Now, most hubs are internally manufactured to allow connecting of 4 peripherals, no matter, how many ports they have in reality. 7-port hubs have seven ports not incidentally - they're two hubs connected in series, internally.

There are many passive hubs, that doesn't follow specifications strictly - and they will give every peripherals as much current as they need even in passive mode, as far as they got enough power from "upstream". Normally, they're worse choice (as they will flop if, for example, you connected them to PC, and 4x 500mA-requiring USB hard disks).

Ok I guess here you mean that you connect a non-compliant passive hub to a PC, and since a PC port only gives up to 500mA (it is assumed compliant) and a USB hard disk wants >500mA, the USB hard disk doesn't work, and then the user is left wondering why.

Originally Posted by Estel

Hoever, for N900, they're better, as they allow you to have the same functionality as powered hub, just by using Y-cable, as described earlier.

Right, but (from my understanding) they would not solve the problem of >200mA peripherals, due to the above.

So, bottom line, if you want to charge the N900 and be able to use >200mA peripherals, so you need a y-cable and a powered hub. Yes?

Thanks esp. for the schematic. I personally will buy a y-cable because they are $2-5 only; even videos about making them recommend not doing it on your own unless you can't wait for the order to arrive.

EDIT: To test my understanding of the matter, let me pose the following solution to the >200mA peripherals problem:

You connect a y-cable to the N900. You connect a passive non-compliant hub to one of the branches. You start hostmode and enumerate the hub. Then you connect a charger to the other branch. Then you connect a >200mA peripheral to the hub. Logic: the charger gives >200mA to the peripheral via the y-cable and the non-compliant hub. The hub has already been enumerated so there is no more enumerating to be be done on the N900, which means there is no problem with the external +5V preventing enumerating. The hub enumerates the peripheral. The peripheral will enumerate and operate because it has sufficient current. Yes? No?

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Last edited by chill; 2014-08-06 at 09:29.

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	Estel	2014-08-06 , 09:51
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#40

Originally Posted by chill

Good info again, thanks. I have a few small questions, if you don't mind, esp. after reading the threads about h-e-n and the likes:

Sure, I'll gladly answer

The things are easy once you know them, but can be confusing at the start. I remember how many times I had problems with it in the past...

Originally Posted by chill

Ok, I guess this is because the N900 can supply no more than 200 mA (this I got from my reading elsewhere).
Not to doubt you, but could you point to the "manual"?

That's why I have put quotas there - I meant general instructions from USB Mode or H-E-N (I assume, that you're using USB Mode).

Originally Posted by chill

I guess you mean no device will enumerate if external +5V is presented to the N900 while you're trying to enumerate.

Yes - even if N900 is *not* charging yet. The sole presence of +5V to N900 from external source prevent enumerating.

Originally Posted by chill

Ok, so reading this and the below, you need a powered hub for these >200mA devices. This is because a) they cannot get >200mA from the N900, and b) the >200mA they could get from a +5V external source via the y-cable would not allow for enumeration on the N900. Correct?

Yes, entirely correct.

Originally Posted by chill

Ok I guess here you mean that you connect a non-compliant passive hub to a PC, and since a PC port only gives up to 500mA (it is assumed compliant) and a USB hard disk wants >500mA, the USB hard disk doesn't work, and then the user is left wondering why.

To be completely precise, in such cases, Hard disk's manufacturers add their own Y-cable, to draw current from 2nd PC port. What I meant is that you connect non-compliant passive HUB to PC - HUB gets up to 500 mA, as you correctly guessed. Then, you connect 4x devices to hub, and every one of them want 300 mA, for example. 4*300mA = 1200 mA. Hub have only 500 mA from single port it is connected to, so it silently fails - not only devices conencted to it, but hub too (it require re-enumerating from scratch, to recover).

Now, compliant hub in passive mode would allow client devices to get only 100 mA, so devices wanting more current wouldn't work, but hub itself wouldn't "die" due to low power (and, in case it have some devices connected, that require less than 100 mA - like mouse, keyboard, etc - they would still continue to work).

But, it's all not entirely related to hostmoding on N900. I meant that - in funny twist - those non-compliant hubs are better for N900, as they try to give peripherals connected to them as much current as needed, and can draw those power from N900's side (which can be already "augmented" with power from 3th branch of Y-cable) - which mean that those passive hubs act entirely like active hubs, for all intents and purposes.

But, to not complicate things, you can safely assume, that you need powered (aka active) hub, for everything that require more than 200 mA, for N900 hostmoding.

Originally Posted by chill

So, bottom line, if you want to charge the N900 and be able to use >200mA peripherals, so you need a y-cable and a powered hub. Yes?

Yes, see above. By the way, if you tinker with it a little, active hub can be powered from the same +5V power source as your N900 is charged from (via 3th branch of Y-cable) - this way, you can carry just one charger with you, instead of two. But for this, you need powerful enough +5V power source. I use a 2A +5V charger, that I have modified to contain two USB ports. I connect 3th branch of Y-cable to it (for charging N900), and another cable for powering active hub, to the 2nd port.

Of course, it doesn't hurt if you want to carry two power sources (one for charging N900, one for powering active hub). It is just less convenient, IMO.

Originally Posted by chill

Thanks esp. for the schematic. I personally will buy a y-cable because they are $2-5 only; even videos about making them recommend not doing it on your own unless you can't wait for the order to arrive.

True

I made it myself, as:
a) I wanted to have it less bulky than ones sold
b) I had all required parts and I'm cheap bastard, so paying few bucks wasn't required
c) doing it myself, I was, at least, sure that it's properly shielded - N900's high-speed hostmode is picky enough, I wasn't in need for risk of any additional interferences.

Originally Posted by chill

EDIT: To test my understanding of the matter, let me pose the following solution to the >200mA peripherals problem:

You connect a y-cable to the N900. You connect a passive non-compliant hub to one of the branches. You start hostmode and enumerate the hub. Then you connect a charger to the other branch.

...then you select "hostmode with charging" on N900, if you want to charge it.

Originally Posted by chill

Then you connect a >200mA peripheral to the hub. Logic: the charger gives >200mA to the peripheral via the y-cable and the non-compliant hub. The hub has already been enumerated so there is no more enumerating to be be done on the N900, which means there is no problem with the external +5V preventing enumerating. The hub enumerates the peripheral. The peripheral will enumerate and operate because it has sufficient current. Yes? No?

Yes, absolutely correct.

/Estel