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2014-09-28
, 19:50
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Community Council |
Posts: 664 |
Thanked: 1,648 times |
Joined on Apr 2012
@ Hamburg
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#32
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Originally Posted by Estel
Indeed this leads to unreasonable insults hard to stand for anybody actually working on communitys' progress.
Well, there is old saying about spending too much time with someone and gaining his traits - I guess some people sticked to joerg on IRC for too long.
Originally Posted by Estel
Right, @mods, please move posts #6-#13, #15-17, #20, #23-#25, #27, #29, #30 and this one* to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93566.
Pity, perhaps, but well, not the end of the world and s**t happens... Enough OT.
* or simply delete this post
__________________
Nokia 5110 > 3310 > 6230 > N70 > N9 BLACK 64GB
Hildon Foundation Board member
Maemo Community e.V. co-creator, founder and director since Q4/2016
Current Maemo Community Council member
Nokia 5110 > 3310 > 6230 > N70 > N9 BLACK 64GB
Hildon Foundation Board member
Maemo Community e.V. co-creator, founder and director since Q4/2016
Current Maemo Community Council member
Last edited by Win7Mac; 2014-09-28 at 20:29. Reason: for claritys' sake
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2014-09-28
, 19:57
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Community Council |
Posts: 664 |
Thanked: 1,648 times |
Joined on Apr 2012
@ Hamburg
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#33
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Regarding Referendum/Possible solutions for Council:
With todays' MC eV's bylaws, electorate is all community members. Councilors may keep that status as well as they're welcome to become regular members. So while it's absolutely fine that council may consist of non-members only, 2 suboptions open up for 1.):
1.a) Council stays apart from MC eV (not a body of it) and respectively can't have real power and responsibility (pretty much like Juiceme put it in 1.)
1.b) Council adheres to MC eV bylaws, becomes a body of MC eV (while the individuals may not) that can have limited power and responsibility as defined in the bylaws*. I'd rather call it option 4.) though.
* For now, this is defined in two paragraphs only:
§ 7 Board of directors:
(5) The Board of Directors executes the Council's and General Assembly's rulings.
and § 8 Council:
(4) The council has the duty to execute elections of all kinds. The council's duties, rules to announce council meetings, their proceedings and executions of votes are regulated by the Association Rules*.
* Association Rules alias General Regulations are not specifying anything beyond this (so far).
For the record, Full § 8 Council:
(1) The Council consists of at least 5 natural persons at least 21 years of age and is elected by the passive members' meeting.
(2) The Council internally votes upon a chairman and two deputy chairmen from who one is assigned secretary.
(3) On termination of individual council members, the duties of the retiring council member can be taken over by the remaining council members, provided that they agree. Alternatively, the council may supplement until the next regular election by council resolution from the number of active members.
(4) ^^...
Last edited by Win7Mac; 2014-09-28 at 21:58. Reason: typos
With todays' MC eV's bylaws, electorate is all community members. Councilors may keep that status as well as they're welcome to become regular members. So while it's absolutely fine that council may consist of non-members only, 2 suboptions open up for 1.):
1.a) Council stays apart from MC eV (not a body of it) and respectively can't have real power and responsibility (pretty much like Juiceme put it in 1.)
1.b) Council adheres to MC eV bylaws, becomes a body of MC eV (while the individuals may not) that can have limited power and responsibility as defined in the bylaws*. I'd rather call it option 4.) though.
* For now, this is defined in two paragraphs only:
§ 7 Board of directors:
(5) The Board of Directors executes the Council's and General Assembly's rulings.
and § 8 Council:
(4) The council has the duty to execute elections of all kinds. The council's duties, rules to announce council meetings, their proceedings and executions of votes are regulated by the Association Rules*.
* Association Rules alias General Regulations are not specifying anything beyond this (so far).
For the record, Full § 8 Council:
(1) The Council consists of at least 5 natural persons at least 21 years of age and is elected by the passive members' meeting.
(2) The Council internally votes upon a chairman and two deputy chairmen from who one is assigned secretary.
(3) On termination of individual council members, the duties of the retiring council member can be taken over by the remaining council members, provided that they agree. Alternatively, the council may supplement until the next regular election by council resolution from the number of active members.
(4) ^^...
Originally Posted by juiceme
me too!
I would like to hear the opinions of people on the correct course to progress with.
__________________
Nokia 5110 > 3310 > 6230 > N70 > N9 BLACK 64GB
Hildon Foundation Board member
Maemo Community e.V. co-creator, founder and director since Q4/2016
Current Maemo Community Council member
Nokia 5110 > 3310 > 6230 > N70 > N9 BLACK 64GB
Hildon Foundation Board member
Maemo Community e.V. co-creator, founder and director since Q4/2016
Current Maemo Community Council member
Last edited by Win7Mac; 2014-09-28 at 21:58. Reason: typos
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2014-09-28
, 20:28
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Posts: 254 |
Thanked: 509 times |
Joined on Nov 2011
@ Canada
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#34
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I'm still trying to understand the whole situation...
A brief history as I understand it:
1. The community council was created to give the community a voice, a place to share ideas about Maemo and other Nokia systems. Nokia owned and operated pretty much all the infrastructure where this happened. The community created their own rules and structure (Community Council.)
2. Nokia was closing down Maemo. Community starts scrambling to create an entity and structure that could legally be given the assets. HiFo was created, and Community Council has essentially the same rules and role. Many discussions and bylaws were created to try to keep both parties "in check."
3. The HiFo entity proves problematic. A solution that seems to work, the German eV is proposed.
Being around at the time, I understood the tension that existed between HiFo and Community Council. There wasn't anything inherent in the HiFo structure that would ensure it did the community's will. Thus the idea that HiFo was the "cashier" only, and the CC was the voice and will of the community.
Now the MCeV is an entirely different type of structure. The GA, however it's defined, and I would hope it's defined as inclusively as possible, (with or without an annual membership fee) guarantees that community as a whole (and not just a 3-5 person Council) is in control, by law.
In the MCeV world, why do we want to hang onto the CC? What's the value that it provides in that structure? Hopefully this won't just provoke flames, but a honest discussion not based on fear.
It seems plain that the MCeV through it's GA, can create any council, commission, or project team to solve problems or do any job required.
Personally, the more I learn about the MCeV, the more I think this is probably the best solution for us. True there is the issue that no one can be a board member who is not an EU citizen (I'm Canadian). I've come to terms with that, and it's been explained that this is a requirement of German law, and there are other ways a non-EU citizen can work for MCeV (and can always be a member of the GA anyway, so have a voice in the community.)
Did I get anything completely wrong?
Last edited by shawnjefferson; 2014-09-28 at 20:32. Reason: grammar, syntax
A brief history as I understand it:
1. The community council was created to give the community a voice, a place to share ideas about Maemo and other Nokia systems. Nokia owned and operated pretty much all the infrastructure where this happened. The community created their own rules and structure (Community Council.)
2. Nokia was closing down Maemo. Community starts scrambling to create an entity and structure that could legally be given the assets. HiFo was created, and Community Council has essentially the same rules and role. Many discussions and bylaws were created to try to keep both parties "in check."
3. The HiFo entity proves problematic. A solution that seems to work, the German eV is proposed.
Being around at the time, I understood the tension that existed between HiFo and Community Council. There wasn't anything inherent in the HiFo structure that would ensure it did the community's will. Thus the idea that HiFo was the "cashier" only, and the CC was the voice and will of the community.
Now the MCeV is an entirely different type of structure. The GA, however it's defined, and I would hope it's defined as inclusively as possible, (with or without an annual membership fee) guarantees that community as a whole (and not just a 3-5 person Council) is in control, by law.
In the MCeV world, why do we want to hang onto the CC? What's the value that it provides in that structure? Hopefully this won't just provoke flames, but a honest discussion not based on fear.
It seems plain that the MCeV through it's GA, can create any council, commission, or project team to solve problems or do any job required.
Personally, the more I learn about the MCeV, the more I think this is probably the best solution for us. True there is the issue that no one can be a board member who is not an EU citizen (I'm Canadian). I've come to terms with that, and it's been explained that this is a requirement of German law, and there are other ways a non-EU citizen can work for MCeV (and can always be a member of the GA anyway, so have a voice in the community.)
Did I get anything completely wrong?
Last edited by shawnjefferson; 2014-09-28 at 20:32. Reason: grammar, syntax
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2014-09-28
, 20:28
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#35
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Originally Posted by woody14619
Now THAT it the hugest pile of BS you ever posted here. It's exactly NOT about all this, it's just YOU who makes up all that.
The issue is not about "MidGard ownership". It never was. That's something Joerg made up. The issue is someone claiming that the servers, and the software running on them, are not legally held and operated by HiFo. By making the argument that Nokia was never in a position of ownership, Joerg is trying to "prove" that they had no right to to grant HiFo that ownership.
It's you perverting any common sense of english language by interpreting a plain simple sentence like "after transfer of servers we did an update of whole midgard to latest available Midgard-1 FOSS version, so no matter what Midgard been on the servers, now definitely it's 100% FOSS" in a way that assumes last "it" would refer to the complete servers (plural! shouldn't it be "they (servers) are" then, instead of "it (midgard) is"?) despite TWO TIMES before I clearly referred to MIDGARD. Then you use that perverted assumption to base BS like the above on it. That's your usual pattern you use all the time, no matter if it's about interpreting "It's" as reference to something totally OT in context, or insinuating that my use of the word "veto" would be an indicator of any special powers I thought I had (while I clearly stated next sentence that I don't even expect anybody caring about my notin about the whole thing), and so on ad nauseum.
The sad thing: you succeeded with this tactics, perverting this whole debate into ... I fail to find words. Anybody reading this and other related threads will be able to tell. You claim you "invented" HiFo now think it was a very bad idea and you wouldn't do it again, but you think abolishing council which got installed by community just like HiFo and replacing both by an e.V which basically got established by win7mac who got indoctrinated by your weird new wisdom and has a highest authority of 3 BoD members "voted" for by less than a dozen which is your new "community" now, was the right thing to do. Pathetic. Anyway when community (the true one) doesn't care and wishes to abolish their only legitimate representative, the council, nobody can help. Good luck with redefining the tasks council had so far which evolved during 4+ years based on careful reasonable considerations, and replacing that by a concept of "It seems plain that the MCeV through it's GA, can create any council, commission, or project team to solve problems or do any job required." I'm sure this wil pan out awesome.
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-09-28 at 21:00.
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2014-09-28
, 20:53
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Posts: 5,028 |
Thanked: 8,613 times |
Joined on Mar 2011
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#36
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Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
...which was absurd idea, as someone who have legal responsibility, can't be "cashier only", and someone who doesn't have *any* legal responsibility, can't be "voice and will of community". Then, "some" people without legal responsibility tried to act like "voice and will of the community" despite this, and demanded others to immediately
Thus the idea that HiFo was the "cashier" only, and the CC was the voice and will of the community.
When no one obeyed, the same "some" people threatened to wipe Maemo's infrastructure from hard disks, and started to demand real-life money for their "services". Board decided to move infrastructure somewhere else (free and responsible hosting), which said "some" people took as coup.
The above pretty much sums up the reasons of current joerg vs. the whole world conflict. Just replace "some people" with joerg
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
I think you got everything absolutely right. We don't need Council anymore, it's relict from the Nokia ownership times (and even then, it hardly worked right).
Did I get anything completely wrong?
/Estel
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Last edited by Estel; 2014-09-28 at 20:57.
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2014-09-28
, 21:09
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#37
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Originally Posted by Estel
Spreading the usual ESTEL'S ULTIMATE LIES bullc**p. We didn't expect different. Just pathetic you are only copying woody's BS who has the copyright in that nonsense of me threatening anybody by anything, or just "asking money for my services". I just stated that a service we booked for maemo wasn't free of charge and I'm stopping to pay that service (off site backup of the maemo-server VM images) from my own pocket. I further stated that our sysops and I think we cannot guarantee safety of maemo when no such off site backup service is in effect. The logical consequence of stopping payment for a paid service will be that the service gets discontinued. Your very special brain making a threat out of this shows what sort of troll you are.
When no one obeyed, the same "some" people threatened to wipe Maemo's infrastructure from hard disks, and started to demand real-life money for their "services". Board decided to move infrastructure somewhere else (free and responsible hosting), which said "some" people took as coup.
The above pretty much sums up the reasons of current joerg vs. the whole world conflict. Just replace "some people" with joerg
PS:
who have legal responsibility, can't be "cashier only"
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-09-28 at 21:21.
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2014-09-28
, 21:16
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Community Council |
Posts: 664 |
Thanked: 1,648 times |
Joined on Apr 2012
@ Hamburg
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#38
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Thanks shawnjefferson, your brief history sums it up quite well.
* HiFo bylaws:
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
There was*, the idea that HiFo was the "cashier" only appeared nevertheless.
There wasn't anything inherent in the HiFo structure that would ensure it did the community's will. Thus the idea that HiFo was the "cashier" only, and the CC was the voice and will of the community.
* HiFo bylaws:
VII. FOUNDATION COUNCIL
The Foundation shall have a Foundation Council that shall organize and manage the membership of
the Foundation; facilitate and assist the activities of the members; communicate the needs of the
membership to the Board; and conduct the elections of the Foundation. There shall be either three of
five persons on Council, each of which shall serve for a term of six (6) months and shall be
determined by an election of the membership. The Foundation Council may create and maintain its
own set of regulations.
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
That should be true, yes.
Now the MCeV is an entirely different type of structure. The GA, however it's defined, and I would hope it's defined as inclusively as possible, (with or without an annual membership fee) guarantees that community as a whole (and not just a 3-5 person Council) is in control, by law.
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
Those are valid questions. I didn't dare to question Councils' existance while working on MC eV bylaws though.
In the MCeV world, why do we want to hang onto the CC? What's the value that it provides in that structure?
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
True again.
It seems plain that the MCeV through it's GA, can create any council, commission, or project team to solve problems or do any job required.
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
Thanks
Personally, the more I learn about the MCeV, the more I think this is probably the best solution for us.
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
Not quite, please see this post.
True there is the issue that no one can be a board member who is not an EU citizen (I'm Canadian).
Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
Obviously not!
Did I get anything completely wrong?
__________________
Nokia 5110 > 3310 > 6230 > N70 > N9 BLACK 64GB
Hildon Foundation Board member
Maemo Community e.V. co-creator, founder and director since Q4/2016
Current Maemo Community Council member
Nokia 5110 > 3310 > 6230 > N70 > N9 BLACK 64GB
Hildon Foundation Board member
Maemo Community e.V. co-creator, founder and director since Q4/2016
Current Maemo Community Council member
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2014-09-28
, 21:25
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#39
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Originally Posted by Win7Mac
You conveniently ignore that the term is "Foundation Council" which we had a referendum to make that council be the Maemo Council which it meant to be from beginning. (only Rob being the single person who didn't accept that HiFo's council being the Maemo Council, so we had to have another referendum fixing this for good)
Thanks shawnjefferson, your brief history sums it up quite well.
There was*, the idea that HiFo was the "cashier" only appeared nevertheless.
* HiFo bylaws:
VII. FOUNDATION COUNCIL
The Foundation shall have a Foundation Council that shall organize and manage the membership of
the Foundation; facilitate and assist the activities of the members; communicate the needs of the
membership to the Board; and conduct the elections of the Foundation. There shall be either three of
five persons on Council, each of which shall serve for a term of six (6) months and shall be
determined by an election of the membership. The Foundation Council may create and maintain its
own set of regulations.
THANKS A LOT, you just approved my take on council being the entity that tells HiFo BoD cashier what to do (usual disclaimer, as always: unless illegal)
You vowed that MCe.V bylaws were ONe HUNDRED PERCENT compatible with this rules. You lied into my face.
@shawnjefferson: yes, that's exactly why HiFo (BoD) quite clearly is forced to do what community told Maemo (= HiFo) Council to do, and Council forwards it to BoD and BoD is supposed to obey (usual disclaimer: unless it's illegal or rogue). The Community elects the BoD and the Council, and either of both entities have means to control the other, worst case by calling for new elections by community (the so called "red button")
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-09-28 at 21:45.
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2014-09-28
, 21:47
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Posts: 51 |
Thanked: 260 times |
Joined on Sep 2010
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#40
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we are trying to move foward, not prove who said what when.
joerg_rw in your last post you seem to be interperting the quoted section to mean the merged council has authority over HiFo,
to me, as a native english speaker it only says that its is responsible for communation beteween community and the board, i see nothing there giving it authority. is there some other documentation giving it authority?
aaron m
joerg_rw in your last post you seem to be interperting the quoted section to mean the merged council has authority over HiFo,
to me, as a native english speaker it only says that its is responsible for communation beteween community and the board, i see nothing there giving it authority. is there some other documentation giving it authority?
aaron m
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The current structure has resulted in far too many power struggles, along with arguments about who is legally responsible, which only serves to make a bad situation worse. I believe having one entity definitively in charge, and which all who wish to be a part of can be makes a lot of sense. This unfortunately means disbanding council, and that means some big referendums to allow the structure to be legally changed like that.
As stated that is only my opinion. I highly recommend you personally go and do your own research regarding the e.V, HiFo and the community council before making any decision on this topic.