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2010-07-16
, 08:43
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Posts: 56 |
Thanked: 50 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
@ leigh-on-sea, UK
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#412
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Originally Posted by Nathraiben
We're on the same page dude! I don't see why a developer would bother writing, or even porting, an app for a phone that undergoes a relatively minute amount of marketing to a wider audience, is niche with a relatively small userbase and is (hardly) supported by a manufacturer that appears to be giving up after a string of failed handsets.
That's actually a really good question, even though I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant in the way I'm going to use it...
Let's take a look from the point of view of a developer. Here's a couple of reasons someone would feel compelled to develop for any platform:
- Money. Not much to get out of an app developed for the N900, is there? The fee for putting your app into the Ovi store is much too high for the low number of actual purchases that are going to be made (which, to a certain extend, is just Ovi's fault, since it keeps potential customers from buying with it's endless bugs, potentially insecure payment and non-acceptance of a huge amount of CCs and other payment methods).
- Prestige. No, not the movie, but the thing that a lot of us ultimately seek. That warm, fuzzy feeling when someone says "Thanks for myApp, I like it!" - that warm, fuzzy feeling that easily gets extinguished by the various "Free software is shitty software!" and "What do you expect from an app written by a single person?" threads and posts here on the forums.
- Range. Writing an application that no more than 5 users are ever going to use seems to be a waste of time. The sad thing is, there ARE quite a few maemo 5 users out there, but with that ever-sickening talk "Maemo was stillborn!" and "Nobody is using it, anyway!" that's not exactly encouraging. Maemo is by far not dead, but all this talk of it BEING dead will eventually really kill it - thanks guys.
Note how only the first one is actually Nokia's fault - the other two reasons are this very community killing any potential developer's interest in developing for this OS.
Well, there's hope we'll get our share of Qt apps once development for Symbian3 and MeeGo has started (see? No reason to declare maemo dead), but for the lack of apps specifically designed for maemo you can congratulate yourselves to a certain amount.
QT please. Could be the saving grace! I love my N900 but I am feeling short changed at the moment when I look at other apps available for other platforms.
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2010-07-16
, 13:58
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Posts: 116 |
Thanked: 39 times |
Joined on Jun 2010
@ Finland
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#413
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Originally Posted by amebes
As I said earlier, this does depend from other issues too, not just how many phones are there in use. If it is cheap (easy&fast) to port an app and users are willing to pay for it you can do it for smaller segment too.
We're on the same page dude! I don't see why a developer would bother writing, or even porting, an app for a phone that undergoes a relatively minute amount of marketing to a wider audience, is niche with a relatively small userbase and is (hardly) supported by a manufacturer that appears to be giving up after a string of failed handsets.
Too bad that Ovi Store is still bit miserable without all payment options etc., Nokia should give developers a decent distribution channel and maybe even support app developers financially to make them port and create apps. Otherwise they wont never catch up with the Android market and Apple Store and the game is lost.
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2010-07-16
, 14:01
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Posts: 4,556 |
Thanked: 1,624 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#414
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Originally Posted by amebes
Corrected that for you.
We're on the same page dude! I don't see why a commercial developer would bother writing, or even porting, an app for a phone that undergoes a relatively minute amount of marketing to a wider audience, is niche with a relatively small userbase and is (hardly) supported by a manufacturer that appears to be giving up after a string of failed handsets.
QT please. Could be the saving grace! I love my N900 but I am feeling short changed at the moment when I look at other apps available for other platforms.
__________________
Originally Posted by ysss
They're maemo and MeeGo...
"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...
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2010-07-16
, 19:50
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Posts: 267 |
Thanked: 408 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Austria
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#415
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Originally Posted by amebes
No, I think we're on as completely different pages as there are...
We're on the same page dude! I don't see why a developer would bother writing, or even porting, an app for a phone that undergoes a relatively minute amount of marketing to a wider audience, is niche with a relatively small userbase and is (hardly) supported by a manufacturer that appears to be giving up after a string of failed handsets.
Like I said, only the money part is really Nokia's fault (thus the correction from LM), while with your post you're actually further strengthening the other two problems.
Above all, there are NOT too few users out there. This is quite the large community for a niche product, and there are lots of people asking for certain application, with even more people signing those pleads.
The problem is that potentially new developers are thrown off by all this talk about "niche" and "relatively small userbase". All of you make it sound like the maemo community consisted of a mere hundred people - and very few develops would consider writing for such a small userbase.
But the userbase is NOT this small, and maemo is NOT stillborn - writing for maemo means reaching a lot of people, with an application that will NOT stay unrecognised between hundreds of fart apps surrounding it. Maemo is a big chance for every developer to get something meaningful out there - but very few realise that, because they're intimitaded by all this highly negative talk here in the forums!
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2010-07-16
, 20:46
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#416
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Originally Posted by amebes
We're on the same page dude! I don't see why a developer would bother writing, or even porting, an app for a phone that undergoes a relatively minute amount of marketing to a wider audience, is niche with a relatively small userbase and is (hardly) supported by a manufacturer that appears to be giving up after a string of failed handsets.
QT please. Could be the saving grace! I love my N900 but I am feeling short changed at the moment when I look at other apps available for other platforms.
Originally Posted by Nathraiben
No, I think we're on as completely different pages as there are...
Like I said, only the money part is really Nokia's fault (thus the correction from LM), while with your post you're actually further strengthening the other two problems.
Above all, there are NOT too few users out there. This is quite the large community for a niche product, and there are lots of people asking for certain application, with even more people signing those pleads.
The problem is that potentially new developers are thrown off by all this talk about "niche" and "relatively small userbase". All of you make it sound like the maemo community consisted of a mere hundred people - and very few develops would consider writing for such a small userbase.
But the userbase is NOT this small, and maemo is NOT stillborn - writing for maemo means reaching a lot of people, with an application that will NOT stay unrecognised between hundreds of fart apps surrounding it. Maemo is a big chance for every developer to get something meaningful out there - but very few realise that, because they're intimitaded by all this highly negative talk here in the forums!
I think you're BOTH forgetting the most important detail which is killing the platform: Nokia's business practices. Period.
Nokia brings out these devices, makes it so that they CAN be obsolete (open-core, closed-drivers/apps/integration) and provides unacceptably poor levels of customer service and support. If customers end up calling Maemo stillborn from birth, it's probably because it's so tied to Nokia. I look forward to what MeeGo is promising, despite my cynicism because of Nokia's involvement. It is my sincere hope that Nokia will then stop bothering with coding (and crippling) the software and concentrate on making more diverse and better hardware and concentrate on providing support for that hardware (customer service, cloud services for portable hardware, a PROPER Ovi store, etc.). Once that can happen, I think you'll start to see at least an IMPROVEMENT in the adoption of said hardware and the possibility of an emergence of commercial software on a relatively new market of devices that aren't as locked down (except where the user has themselves decided to install DRM'ed content).
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2010-07-16
, 22:17
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Posts: 267 |
Thanked: 408 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Austria
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#417
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Originally Posted by danramos
Sorry, dan, not trying to be disrespectful, but I think you should take a break for a couple of days. Lately, you've been typing yourself into a rage, doing nothing but make a lot of asterisk posts about how *** that *** OS is thanks to *** Nokia ***ing up everything.
I think you're BOTH forgetting the most important detail which is killing the platform: Nokia's business practices. Period.
Nokia brings out these devices, makes it so that they CAN be obsolete (open-core, closed-drivers/apps/integration) and provides unacceptably poor levels of customer service and support. If customers end up calling Maemo stillborn from birth, it's probably because it's so tied to Nokia. I look forward to what MeeGo is promising, despite my cynicism because of Nokia's involvement. It is my sincere hope that Nokia will then stop bothering with coding (and crippling) the software and concentrate on making more diverse and better hardware and concentrate on providing support for that hardware (customer service, cloud services for portable hardware, a PROPER Ovi store, etc.). Once that can happen, I think you'll start to see at least an IMPROVEMENT in the adoption of said hardware and the possibility of an emergence of commercial software on a relatively new market of devices that aren't as locked down (except where the user has themselves decided to install DRM'ed content).
No offence meant, but it's taking away a lot from the (mainly valid) points you're making.
Though, even ignoring that personal hate you seem to be developing for Nokia, I have to disagree. What you're saying, in short, is: It's Nokia's fault we're scaring developers away.
No, it's not. It is OUR decision whether we post over and over and over again how maemo is stillborn (which it isn't, no matter how much people would want it to just so they can blame it on Nokia - but something with a community as large as this one and other maemo/N900 communities out there most definitely is NOT dead).
How about, instead of whining and pointing fingers at Nokia (scaring away future developers while doing so), we start with a heartfelt "Screw Nokia support - let's do our own thing now!" - and create a POSITIVE atmosphere that actually ATTRACTS developers?
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2010-07-16
, 22:43
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#418
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Originally Posted by Nathraiben
If you have to disclaim offensiveness, you're probably trying to be offensive. Make your points, don't apologize. You're exaggerating my vitriol and, while saying they're valid points, you're dismissing those points at the same time. I don't really appreciate that either. You can reply back to them or not, but don't wrap it around in the false pretense of tact.
Sorry, dan, not trying to be disrespectful, but I think you should take a break for a couple of days. Lately, you've been typing yourself into a rage, doing nothing but make a lot of asterisk posts about how *** that *** OS is thanks to *** Nokia ***ing up everything.
No offence meant, but it's taking away a lot from the (mainly valid) points you're making.
Though, even ignoring that personal hate you seem to be developing for Nokia, I have to disagree. What you're saying, in short, is: It's Nokia's fault we're scaring developers away.
No, it's not. It is OUR decision whether we post over and over and over again how maemo is stillborn (which it isn't, no matter how much people would want it to just so they can blame it on Nokia - but something with a community as large as this one and other maemo/N900 communities out there most definitely is NOT dead).
How about, instead of whining and pointing fingers at Nokia (scaring away future developers while doing so), we start with a heartfelt "Screw Nokia support - let's do our own thing now!" - and create a POSITIVE atmosphere that actually ATTRACTS developers?
Getting back to the topic at hand, I disagree. Whining and pointing fingers at Nokia is about the only thing someone in my position, as a purchasing user, can do. It's also a valuable barometer for developers inside and outside of the vendor. For the vendor, in this case Nokia, constructive and well argued criticism of their products should be kept and measured and they should be going out of their way to try to get MORE people to criticize and explain their criticism and points of view, regardless of how many asterisks are involved for that matter. For the developers outside of the vendor, it's a barometer of the customer experience and a weather forecast of what to expect when dealing with said vendor.
If Nokia sells a device with Linux and open-source as a selling point, then cripple that experience through closed-source, bad customer service, a lack of parts/accessories/software/etc, with the promise of a much more open and better experience for the future, instead delivering continued closed-source planned obsolescence and more of the same, yeah.. it deserves being called still-born. It started out with a GREAT idea--but only great hopes and a weak start that eventually led to even weaker future and less hope.
If MeeGo works out and there's competition for that platform on the hardware, how much do you want to bet that these types of complaints begin to melt away?
Maemo is dead, man. It WAS stillborn. It's been a crippled, hobbled OS this whole time with the promise of being set free. It's dead now. MeeGo MIGHT be the future but experience tells me that if it is, it's DESPITE Nokia's involvement, not BECAUSE of it.
One more thing: How do you suggest we "do our own thing" on Nokia's devices? How DO I "do my own thing" to get a new kickstand or stylus for my sister's N800? How do I "do my own thing" about getting some hardware replaced that Nokia made? How do I "do my own thing" about fixing firmware I can't get source code to look at or to get someone else to look at?
Last edited by danramos; 2010-07-16 at 22:51. Reason: One more thing...
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2010-07-16
, 23:28
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Posts: 267 |
Thanked: 408 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Austria
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#419
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Originally Posted by danramos
If you want to take an advice as "trying to be offensive", that's your decision. But just a hint: Not everybody out there is a sneaky bastard trying to stab you.
If you have to disclaim offensiveness, you're probably trying to be offensive. Make your points, don't apologize. You're exaggerating my vitriol and, while saying they're valid points, you're dismissing those points at the same time. I don't really appreciate that either. You can reply back to them or not, but don't wrap it around in the false pretense of tact.
If you want to go on alienating people who're actually on your side by hiding behind asterisks, by all means go on. Since hinting you on that not being the best way to spread your opinion is not appreciated, you won't hear anything like that from me ever again.
And since when do I have to agree with ALL of your points just because I think MOST of them are valid? I disagree with that one point you've made here in this topic - does that mean I cannot appreciate other parts of your opinion?
Talking about negativity, eh?
Getting back to the topic at hand, I disagree. Whining and pointing fingers at Nokia is about the only thing someone in my position, as a purchasing user, can do. It's also a valuable barometer for developers inside and outside of the vendor. For the vendor, in this case Nokia, constructive and well argued criticism of their products should be kept and measured and they should be going out of their way to try to get MORE people to criticize and explain their criticism and points of view, regardless of how many asterisks are involved for that matter. For the developers outside of the vendor, it's a barometer of the customer experience and a weather forecast of what to expect when dealing with said vendor.
As to outside developers: So you say it's a good thing developers are scared away by this barometer of yours? You don't WANT new applications?
Seems like you really want the community to die so you can point fingers at Nokia...
If Nokia sells a device with Linux and open-source as a selling point, then cripple that experience through closed-source, bad customer service, a lack of parts/accessories/software/etc, with the promise of a much more open and better experience for the future, instead delivering continued closed-source planned obsolescence and more of the same, yeah.. it deserves being called still-born. It started out with a GREAT idea--but only great hopes and a weak start that eventually led to even weaker future and less hope.
But you're rather intent on getting rid of community developers - just so you can say "Ha, see - I told you!"???
If MeeGo works out and there's competition for that platform on the hardware, how much do you want to bet that these types of complaints begin to melt away?
Maemo is dead, man. It WAS stillborn. It's been a crippled, hobbled OS this whole time with the promise of being set free. It's dead now. MeeGo MIGHT be the future but experience tells me that if it is, it's DESPITE Nokia's involvement, not BECAUSE of it.
One more thing: How do you suggest we "do our own thing" on Nokia's devices? How DO I "do my own thing" to get a new kickstand or stylus for my sister's N800? How do I "do my own thing" about getting some hardware replaced that Nokia made? How do I "do my own thing" about fixing firmware I can't get source code to look at or to get someone else to look at?
Last edited by Nathraiben; 2010-07-16 at 23:31.
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2010-07-16
, 23:41
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Posts: 2,050 |
Thanked: 1,425 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Bucharest
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#420
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Originally Posted by Nathraiben
Not if you're doing it wrong. If you expect to get rich from such an app and start a business, no. But let's not forget, people get nice cash out of an app for 40$ phones, you're preaching to 600E.
- Money. Not much to get out of an app developed for the N900, is there? The fee for putting your app into the Ovi store is much too high for the low number of actual purchases that are going to be made (which, to a certain extend, is just Ovi's fault, since it keeps potential customers from buying with it's endless bugs, potentially insecure payment and non-acceptance of a huge amount of CCs and other payment methods).
Write something people actually will use, something cool, and they will come. Get yourself a Paypal account, so people can purchase/donate by mail, safely. Don't go through OVI that starts you off in the negative, than makes it hard for half of Europe to buy.
Think. What do I want from this app? Am I ready to waste a week's worth of evenings for 40$? Do I want the local prestige? Fine, write. Want to get 4 grand? You shouldn't be here.
Ovi's most downloaded is paid. Also, among most platforms, most downloaded apps are paid. Money isn't the problem.
Ovi has exposure for S60, where you browse. N900 has repos, and there's nothing keeping you from distributing a demo, or even a full version and ask for donations.
And don't start that DRM thing again. The torrents and DC and whatnot are full, FULL with cracked S60 apps and that hasn't exactly killed the business. People who go browsing for cracked versions aren't people who are willing to pay.
I agree with you, technically. Ovi's solution is for mature markets. But there are alternatives, use them.
Originally Posted by Nathraiben
I disagree. While I do support and encourage some developers who wrote some stuff, some of it is ... well, not exactly thanks magnet.
- Prestige. No, not the movie, but the thing that a lot of us ultimately seek. That warm, fuzzy feeling when someone says "Thanks for myApp, I like it!" - that warm, fuzzy feeling that easily gets extinguished by the various "Free software is shitty software!" and "What do you expect from an app written by a single person?" threads and posts here on the forums.
Just because you wrote software doesn't entitle you to prestige. And if you think that you gain respect by just dumping code in an app, you don't understand how prestige works.
Prestige is won, earned, gained. If you are looking for prestige, write something WE want. Ask around, encourage ideas, add options when people like/dislike, instead of simple minded, simple implementation, I-decide-what's-best-for-you, it's-a-port-so-ask-the-developer, I-do-this-for-free-you-owe-me.
How many of the apps here are just straight recompiles? How many are two-liners? How many are write-and-abandon? This isn't how prestige is gained.
Maemo isn't a small obscure platform. It might not be as widely used as others, but still, it's Nokia's best thus far and has the potential for fame.
Some of the developers here have gained quite a few points on Google, and add this platform under their belt. I strongly believe that useful, maintained apps do add to karma.
Bottom line is, prestige is earned, and hard. The good news is, it comes naturally, and a few nay-sayers will not drown the thanks.
Also, they are right. What do you expect from one-man apps? How many great apps are one-man on other platforms? How many games that sell over 10.000 copies are not the product of a team? It might not be the best encouragement, but it's true. User opinions are part of public development. How else would this work? Developer releases 0.1, everyone is in awe, we all agree it's perfect and just leave it like that, there's no need to ever improve.
Many developers have asked for help from people who don't write for Linux, asked for beta testers, icons, graphics, advice. They generally get them.
Originally Posted by Nathraiben
Really? You think that's why there are 5 users? No, there are five users because it's a LOT easier to put together a script that parses a web page and call that an app, than actually doing development.
- Range. Writing an application that no more than 5 users are ever going to use seems to be a waste of time. The sad thing is, there ARE quite a few maemo 5 users out there, but with that ever-sickening talk "Maemo was stillborn!" and "Nobody is using it, anyway!" that's not exactly encouraging. Maemo is by far not dead, but all this talk of it BEING dead will eventually really kill it - thanks guys.
Sharing addons for local sites, re-re-reimplementations of "simple" browsers, clients, stuff that is either redundant or limited, per-city-only apps, all these have low user base.
You can't have tons of users when you list the program of a city's bus. Not that there's anything wrong witch such an app, great work, but that's really a 5-user app. So are per-site apps, where you need an account. These typically drag, have no testers to be promoted, and either die out or take forever.
I don't think general, useful apps have a userbase problem. Maemo mapper has over one hundred thousand downloads. mplayer and OpenSSH over fifty.
There are quite a few with over 10K (56).
And frankly, what difference does it make? You have a great idea, know how to do it, can do it, but won't because not enough people will learn of your greatness?
Originally Posted by Nathraiben
Oh, how easy it is to blame the community. No money, because community is cheap. No prestige, because community stinks. No fans, because community is small. Heck, you'd think if we had a good app we'd bury it just to be behinds about it.
Note how only the first one is actually Nokia's fault - the other two reasons are this very community killing any potential developer's interest in developing for this OS.
If you build it, they will come. If it's useful, they will download and install it. If it's really good, they'll pay. Everyone else does. All platforms started SOMEWHERE. It's definitely not impossible. It's definitely hard.
I don't see Wikipedia gasping for air. I don't see chat forums dead. Because they are useful, we want them up and running, and we give what we can. What makes you think this works everywhere else but here?
And the true beauty of it is this: it's hard work, low pay, thankless job. You know, just like everywhere else. Or do you think that developing for iPhone is easy? Or that it's a one-man job? Or that it gets you instant-fame among other half-a-million apps? If anything, you get a lot more exposure here if you want fame, a lot less competition if you want to sell, and it's a lot easier knowing where that bar is now.
__________________
N900 dead and Nokia no longer replaces them. Thanks for all the fish.
Keep the forums clean: use "Thanks" button instead of the thank you post.
N900 dead and Nokia no longer replaces them. Thanks for all the fish.
Keep the forums clean: use "Thanks" button instead of the thank you post.
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The fart-app is soooo clever...
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