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2009-10-23
, 15:08
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Posts: 2,014 |
Thanked: 1,581 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
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#42
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Originally Posted by volt
As a UNIX admin I never make the root partition huge. Software that installs there rather than to /opt (or at worst a symlinked /usr) doesnt belong on my machines. This has NOTHING to do with Nokia and everything to do with devs making sure that their app is correctly located. Its not as if thats even a hard thing to do.
This "This is not a problem, the users, developers and testers are doing it wrong" excuse is an excuse.
Remember that a lot of the software available are ports. Quite a bit is ported by people who wants to do their software more accessible, who doesn't even care a bit for this platform but was asked by people who do. And their software isn't buggy, it's ported and works on a memory-challenged device.
People are not misusing their device when they install Pidgin or whatnot from the developers site, either. It's not like they're jailbreaking an Iphone. Linux is not [yet] about signed app cash stores, this is normal Linux usage. Nokia is deviating from the norm, not their users.
The device has too little space available for applications. The designers at Nokia most certainly knew it when they designed it, and yet they compromised, I am guessing it has to do with price. The /opt solution is helpful but not perfect.
Pointing fingers at each other isn't helpful for anyone. The device isn't perfect, like the N810 wasn't perfect. The old as well as the new device takes some hacking to be able to use as much software as we like. Software developers will be forced to optify their software, even if it's not their responsibility in my POV. And those who do not, will make the world a little harder for us users.
The /opt solution is a clear improvement over no solution. But it's still not really good. I guess it's acceptable for now.
But Nokia. Pointing fingers at the users and developers and testers should be beneath you. This is your responsibility.
Don't go pointing the finger at Nokia. Or would you rather they had just made one big / partition and left it at that.
__________________
Class .. : Power Poster, Potential Coder
Humor .. : [*********] Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Patience : [***-------] Weapon(s): +2 Logic Mace
Agro ... : |*****-----] Relic(s) : G1, N900
Class .. : Power Poster, Potential Coder
Humor .. : [*********] Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Patience : [***-------] Weapon(s): +2 Logic Mace
Agro ... : |*****-----] Relic(s) : G1, N900
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2009-10-23
, 15:17
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Posts: 1,309 |
Thanked: 1,187 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
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#43
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Originally Posted by Bratag
I point the finger at Nokia because I don't like that they try to blame everyone else instead of themselves. I will point a finger at anyone who does that with their product, including my own coworkers. You. Never. Blame. The. Customer.
Don't go pointing the finger at Nokia.
Originally Posted by Bratag
No.
Or would you rather they had just made one big / partition and left it at that.
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2009-10-23
, 15:24
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Posts: 1,055 |
Thanked: 4,107 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Norway
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#44
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Originally Posted by volt
This really, really seems out of left field. I've not seen any finger pointing at all - in fact, nothing really concrete as to the cause, beyond a mention from Quim that this is (for the most part) caused by installing applications which haven't undergone QA, which is a perfectly reasonable statement to make given that, as you point out, software is being ported which might not be done in an optimal manner.
But Nokia. Pointing fingers at the users and developers and testers should be beneath you. This is your responsibility.
Why the hostility?
__________________
i'm a Qt expert and former Jolla sailor (forever sailing, in spirit).
if you like, read more about me.
if you find me entertaining, or useful, thank me. if you don't, then tell me why.
i'm a Qt expert and former Jolla sailor (forever sailing, in spirit).
if you like, read more about me.
if you find me entertaining, or useful, thank me. if you don't, then tell me why.
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2009-10-23
, 15:34
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Posts: 2,121 |
Thanked: 1,540 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Oxford, UK
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#45
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Out of interest, volt, how do you suggest Nokia solve this problem, if not optifying?
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2009-10-23
, 15:38
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Posts: 1,309 |
Thanked: 1,187 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
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#46
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Originally Posted by w00t
I've not seen any finger pointing at all
(...)
Originally Posted by qgil
This means:
This happens most probably because you are installing applications from extras-devel (...) *1
Please don't install software from extras-devel unless (...) *2
Feel free filing bugs asking them to use /opt (...) *3 *4
1) You did it wrong,
2) Don't do it like that,
3) Its your responsibility to
4) make the developers fix their bugs.
Total denial of responsibility.
Originally Posted by w00t
Please don't mistake a stern talking-to and disagreement with hostility. I apologize that my tone sometimes come off as more aggressive than I mean to.
Why the hostility?
| The Following User Says Thank You to volt For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-10-23
, 15:39
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Posts: 452 |
Thanked: 522 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
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#47
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For those who are interested;
http://wiki.maemo.org/Opt_Problem
Opt appear to currently be the accepted solution and I have already submitted and optified about 25 megs worth of libraries.
Nathan.
http://wiki.maemo.org/Opt_Problem
Opt appear to currently be the accepted solution and I have already submitted and optified about 25 megs worth of libraries.
Nathan.
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2009-10-23
, 15:44
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Posts: 1,055 |
Thanked: 4,107 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Norway
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#48
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Originally Posted by volt
Have to say, I do more or less agree with what was said. If you're running experimental software, bad things can happen - so you shouldn't do that unless you know what the risks are.
This means:
1) You did it wrong,
2) Don't do it like that,
3) Its your responsibility to
4) make the developers fix their bugs.
Obviously, also, Nokia can't be expected to port, test, and fix bugs in every application going onto the platform *on their own*, which is where 3&4 come in.
This is a community for a reason.
Originally Posted by volt
No problem. It's the internet, we're bound to misunderstand each other. For my part, I think it's a good thing that I *did* misinterpret you, so that your meaning and reasoning becomes more clear, even if I still don't fully agree with your sentiments.
Please don't mistake a stern talking-to and disagreement with hostility. I apologize that my tone sometimes come off as more aggressive than I mean to.
__________________
i'm a Qt expert and former Jolla sailor (forever sailing, in spirit).
if you like, read more about me.
if you find me entertaining, or useful, thank me. if you don't, then tell me why.
i'm a Qt expert and former Jolla sailor (forever sailing, in spirit).
if you like, read more about me.
if you find me entertaining, or useful, thank me. if you don't, then tell me why.
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2009-10-23
, 15:46
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Posts: 1,309 |
Thanked: 1,187 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
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#49
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Originally Posted by pelago
I have not even suggested that Nokia solve the problem, have I? I have only pointed out that blaming everyone else is bad form. They more than anyone else have had the opportunity to come up in a timely manner with as good a solution as they could. If they haven't managed, I have no illusion I can come up with a better solution in a matter of minutes.
Out of interest, volt, how do you suggest Nokia solve this problem, if not optifying?
As I distinctly said, the /opt solution is much better than no solution. I wouldn't have minded a bigger NAND chip but as I also said, I believe there was made a compromise because of price.
I am not shaking a fist at Nokia for not having a magical solution on a capacity problem, i am shaking a finger for trying to wiggle out of responsibility.
Edit:
Just to sum up what I've been trying to say:
I am not saying Nokia should have prevented the problem,
I am saying they should Never. Blame. The. Customer.
Last edited by volt; 2009-10-23 at 15:49.
| The Following User Says Thank You to volt For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-10-23
, 15:59
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Posts: 445 |
Thanked: 572 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Oxford
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#50
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Originally Posted by Bratag
No packaged software should ever install to /opt, it's a blatant FHS violation. That said; is there any reason we're not mounting the 2Gb of space that's being used as /opt as /usr instead?
As a UNIX admin I never make the root partition huge. Software that installs there rather than to /opt (or at worst a symlinked /usr) doesnt belong on my machines.
Remember that a lot of the software available are ports. Quite a bit is ported by people who wants to do their software more accessible, who doesn't even care a bit for this platform but was asked by people who do. And their software isn't buggy, it's ported and works on a memory-challenged device.
People are not misusing their device when they install Pidgin or whatnot from the developers site, either. It's not like they're jailbreaking an Iphone. Linux is not [yet] about signed app cash stores, this is normal Linux usage. Nokia is deviating from the norm, not their users.
The device has too little space available for applications. The designers at Nokia most certainly knew it when they designed it, and yet they compromised, I am guessing it has to do with price. The /opt solution is helpful but not perfect.
Pointing fingers at each other isn't helpful for anyone. Edit: even when it's me who's doing it
The /opt solution is a clear improvement over no solution. But it's still not really good. I guess it's acceptable for now.
But Nokia. Pointing fingers at the users and developers and testers should be beneath you. This is your responsibility.
Last edited by volt; 2009-10-23 at 16:03.