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phi is offline phi
2007-10-29 , 18:41
Posts: 428 | Thanked: 54 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Washington DC
#41
Originally Posted by Zoso View Post
You read the original Slashdot story about the iPod? Though particularly funny with hindsight, it maybe wasn't quite so far off the mark based on the first generation unit. And the iPhone, and thus iPod Touch, are the first generation of Apple touchscreen/tablet/PDA-type things (though success won't inevitably follow, see also "Newton").
I love how its entered in the Wikipedia Entry

Malda is also infamous for his dismissive description of Apple Computer's then newly introduced iPod: "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."[1] This quote has often been used to illustrate the gulf between Slashdot's "techno-elite" and ordinary computer users.
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Wizard69 is offline Wizard69
2007-10-30 , 04:47
Posts: 27 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Oct 2007
#42
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
This is a very interesting one - it reminds me of something a Nokia representative (probably Ari Jaaksi, but I could be wrong) said when they launched the 770: that the very reason for this product line is to create a new kind of device, a whole new market. Something thats not a media player, not a PDA, not a phone, simply not something we already know but the first of its kind.
All I'm simply saying is that the single purpose Internet Tablet has a dim future because people will choose to carry a Cell Phone or a Music player around with them before they will choose a Internet Tablet. Better yet they will combine a Media player with a cell phone. Those two things right there will keep a device in somebodies pocket.

Now throw in internet access and the device becomes even more attractive. Take the same device and remove the Cell and music player and you have a mass sales problem.

Thinking of it, it makes sense that Nokia tries so hard to avoid anything that could possibly put the tablets in one of the existing categories in public perception:
Yes and I wonder why?
  • They dont want it to be a PDA, so they dont offer even basic PIM-functionality (even though Nokia has this kind of software)
  • Even Apple got this half right on their beta hardware. Beta because I don't believe that the Touch nor the iPhone are even half done at the moment. The killer here is that this product is open source, seems like they could have found something to support or port that would have done them nicely.
  • They dont want it to be a media player, so they dont offer high capacity storage (even though it would be possible with only minor changes to the design)
This is where I think they really hurt themselves with the N810. It seems like a simple concept too. Then the added GPS which takes even more of that storage space.
  • They dont want it to be a phone, so no SIM-card.
    • I can see them getting by for a while without Cell access.
    I never thought of it this way before... So they're doing something very, very risky with the tablets. You're right: people tend to buy devices for well known concepts. Media player is a well known concept. Internet tablet isnt. So what Nokia needs to do is slowly make the concept known and create the market with as little risk as possible - because it could fail miserably.
    Well I was thinking more along the line of well known or accepted uses. People have been listening to music for centuries, a MP3 player is just a better way to carry that music with you. Same thing for communications, we could still use smoke signals to contact friends and family but a cell is far more reliable. These two things people are willing to pay for, frankly through the nose, to have available constantly on their person. So the question is does the mass market see such a need for a internet only tablet. I don't think so.

    I feel they've been successful so far. They wouldnt have introduced a third tablet if the 770 and N800 wouldnt have met their expectations sales-wise. And, even more important, other manufacturers join the party now. (Think of Intel.) Still, the game is not over; we'll yet have to see if the market actually exists in 2-3 years.
    The N810 puzzles me to no end. It is almost like a response to systems that where not selling well. A shotgun approach to seeing what sticks well.
    One more reason to keep it simple and not waste precious space.

    Yep, seen the previews. Guess I'm simply not the Apple kind of guy. I remember when first working with OSX the dock made me scream and shout because I didnt find anything there. And Apple-guys say its the best since they invented chocolate. Will probably be the same for this concept...
    I've been a long time Linux user, but to be perfectly honest Apples latest effort intrigues me. Especially because they have really spent some time on the low level out of the way UNIX stuff. Combined that with a really well developed higher level user interface and you get the best of both worlds. Now if they could only go about building hardware that I'd like to run such an OS on!

    In any event i starting to think that you are missing the whole point of a high level Windows manager type interface. Gnome, KDE or Apples Mac, are the same in that the idea is to expose the common to the user in an easy graphical environment. None of these systems demand that you stay out of the entrails. That isn't their point at all.

    Dave
     
    wagamama is offline wagamama
    2007-10-30 , 06:24
    Posts: 1 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Oct 2007
    #43
    I find the comparison of an ipod or touch with the Nokia pad ludicrous. Polish of the Apple product is better and it probably always will be. Let's face it, Nokia is a consensus-driven company and no way you'll have significant innovation when you have to get NIH'ers to agree. However, Apple pushes closed platforms (yes I heard SJ last week) and thus will never be my choice.

    As I have all three (770, 800, 810) I've noticed that some aspects of "fit and finish" are getting better while others are regressing. I wish I knew which *****(s) decided to eliminate the 2nd SD slot, limit support of SD size, not include at least a gig of ram, and stay with the crippled GUI support.

    Earth to Nokia! Handheld XP/Vista systems are coming fast. You can't compete by offering crippled hardware and software.

    I'm not sure this was inflammatory enough.
     
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    benny1967 is offline benny1967
    2007-10-30 , 07:06
    Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
    #44
    Originally Posted by Wizard69 View Post
    In any event i starting to think that you are missing the whole point of a high level Windows manager type interface. Gnome, KDE or Apples Mac, are the same in that the idea is to expose the common to the user in an easy graphical environment. None of these systems demand that you stay out of the entrails. That isn't their point at all.
    If this is your conclusion, probably my english is much worse than i ever thought; what on earth makes you believe now i'm missing the point of graphical UIs? its graphical UI i talked about. good graphical UIs and bad ones. research done on graphical UIs. peoples experiences with graphical UIs. ...

    exposing common functions to the end user can be done in two ways: simple, unobtrusive and straightforward (the good way) or interrupting the users workflow, turning what could be a single click into "end of act 1, get the elephants out on the stage". it doesnt matter at all how pretty it looks.

    anyway... as i'm simply missing the point completely i think i'd better not continue this.
     
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    benny1967 is offline benny1967
    2007-10-30 , 07:23
    Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
    #45
    Originally Posted by Zoso View Post
    You read the original Slashdot story about the iPod? Though particularly funny with hindsight....
    this is a little OT now and might not have been your point at all, but:

    it seems to me that one undisputed consensus here in this forum is: "a commercially successful product must certainly be a good product". (and the other way round: "if a product doesnt reach the mass market, its not a good product")

    am i right? is commercial success an indictor to you about the quality of a product? if so, why? (i'm a little surprised by such an idea.)
     
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    Texrat is offline Texrat
    2007-10-30 , 12:54
    Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
    #46
    Good question Benny.

    There have certainly been products that launched very well, and very large, only to turn out to be seriously flawed over (sometimes very short) time. So we need to qualify that "commercial success" description...
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    Mara is offline Mara
    2007-10-30 , 13:02
    Posts: 1,310 | Thanked: 820 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Irving, TX
    #47
    Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
    Good question Benny.

    There have certainly been products that launched very well, and very large, only to turn out to be seriously flawed over (sometimes very short) time. So we need to qualify that "commercial success" description...
    Somehow this reminded me about a M$ company products...
     
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    aflegg is offline aflegg
    2007-10-30 , 13:04
    Posts: 1,463 | Thanked: 81 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ UK
    #48
    Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
    it seems to me that one undisputed consensus here in this forum is: "a commercially successful product must certainly be a good product". (and the other way round: "if a product doesnt reach the mass market, its not a good product")

    am i right? is commercial success an indictor to you about the quality of a product? if so, why? (i'm a little surprised by such an idea.)
    For a gadget like a NIT, or an iPhone-like device with SDK, there is a minimum threshold at which the community really flourishes and delivers a variety of different solutions based on the device.

    The iPhone is there already, the NITs have been on the cusp of breaking that since they were released, AFAICT.

    Commercial success makes it much more likely that that threshold will be reached and third-party software, accessories, solutions will be delivered.
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    neubie is offline neubie
    2007-10-30 , 13:14
    Posts: 16 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Jun 2007
    #49
    It seems to me that the Touch, Iphone, Internet tablets, and PDAs in general all suffer from the same problem... they're all trying to be boxed in to certain niches when what a lot of us want is really a personal computer in a pocketable format- a general purpose device that we get to use for what we want (providing the software exists.)

    Maybe MIDs will be the answer... when they exist.
     
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    Hedgecore is offline Hedgecore
    2007-10-30 , 13:20
    Posts: 1,361 | Thanked: 115 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    #50
    Thank you TexRat Admittedly I was stirring up $#!@, but that's why Apple fanatics are fun. And Nokia fanatics. The latter just seems much more refined. One of these days I'll make a flow chart about how to finally argue properly with an iDiot, but til then I'm just going to rub my temples.

    This is one of the more stupid threads I've come across in this forum (Queue Apple fan boys: "Then why are you posting in it?"), but I'm enjoying the recycled cyclical arguments.

    And now I'll go all zen on your asses.

    What if the iPod *is* the better music player? What if the iPhone *is* the better... whatever it does besides take calls. What if the iPod Touch *does* have a better touch screen? What if your naughty bits *do* fall into the water every time you go to take a leak they're so long.

    The world is now covered in glossy white plastic, everything you own has a used piece of fruit on it (someone took a bite outta that thing), can we finally move on? I like the tablets. I don't care if the average mouth breather might find them too difficult because you guys seem to think so. (My parents, which the last technological device they mastered was a top loader VCR, used it just fine.)

    None of the iLife products iDo what i want them to iDo.

    I think our time here could be better spent discussing which Ikea furniture combinations might best suit the colour scheme of the n810.
     
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