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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-03-19 , 15:16
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#41
About the text vs. icon thing:
Originally Posted by namtastic View Post
Not just that, but like you said, you have to *learn* the action. Once you've learned it, the icons are only reminders for something you already know what to do. The most important use here is teaching new users new interactions the first time using it, and these icons aren't doing the job.
In another post - maybe not even in this thread, I can't remember exactly - I wrote how UI design is balancing conflicting goals. Like: Efficient workflows vs. pretty looks. Easy to learn for a first time user ("intuitive") vs. easy to use for somebody who already knows the application. Etc. etc.

Icons vs. text is one of these battlegrounds. Most people find an icon they look for much quicker in a list of icons than a certain text in a text-list. Therefore, an icon is by far superior to text if you want to provide quick access for experienced users, for those who use each and every function twice a day.

OTOH, if you don't even know which functions are available, how are you supposed to know what "yellow rectangle with little star on the top left corner" is supposed to do? Is it related to "yellow folder with plus symbol on upper right corner"? Or is it similar to "3 yellow rectangles above each other"?
You would need a manual. But everything that needs a manual is a bad GUI by definition.
(And even though we all assume it doesn't: It does apply to so called "well known" icons such as the RSS-icon or a star for favorites. A lot of people just do not know what these things are.)

So what's The Right Thing to do? If your application is for geeks and experienced users who have fun exploring it by trial and error, use symbols. If not (and that's what we normally have), use text. If there's room for it, use both or give the user an option in the settings. That's what most applications do.
It's no use discussing a wrong or right here as a matter of principle. But I guess it's obvious Fennec is not aimed at the geeks among us, so text should be the better choice as a general rule.
 
gpmartinson is offline gpmartinson
2009-03-19 , 15:20
Posts: 43 | Thanked: 6 times | Joined on Feb 2009 @ Saint Paul, mn
#42
I personally am encouraged by the beta. Its not fully usable...you lose keyboard after going fullscreen(?) but its a good concept.

I'm just a touch discouraged that there are so many pieces that are half-delivered for the Nokia...I want it all now!
 
namtastic is offline namtastic
2009-03-19 , 16:03
Posts: 169 | Thanked: 38 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Brooklyn, NY
#43
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
How do you mean? Either the developer has to arrange translations by the translation team or the developer has to arrange a graphics artist who makes the icon. You can translate bad, and you can pick a bad icon.
What I meant was: "Oh, it's too hard to translate these two lines of text into all the languages we want to deploy the application in, so instead of doing that, let's just try to explain it in icons and let the users figure it out."

Yet icons need to be translated too, because there are cultural implications on those as well. Take for example the PSP: in the East "X" is an acceptance symbol, like checking off something you want. in the West, "X" is to cancel. So when games are translated to English, the Circle and X actions are always swapped.

So you can't always avoid doing translations, and icons are never 100% universal.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
Exactly. A power button usually has the power symbol on it. My TV has that. My coffee machine has that. My laptop has that. My speakers have that. And so on. My old speakers do not have that btw:
But standardization, specifically international bodies like ISO and IEC are the ones that made that happen. The icon, on its own, is not very intuitive (My in-laws' printer has the word "power" labeled under the button, even though the button has the icon on it, for example). To an engineer, a circle with a line in it might read as a broken circuit; When I first saw it introduced on a PC I thought it was a reset button and not an on/off toggle. It's supposed to be an abstraction of a physical toggle switch in the "up" position. I've seen plenty of people never see this, just like people don't immediately see the faces instead of the vase (in that optical "illusion"), if you know what I mean. Most people will muddle past an icon's meaning as long as they can associate the image to the desired action.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
Icons never do such job unless they already have brand recognition. Teaching this is the job of the documentation.
Yeah, but that documentation *is* text, and in this case it doesn't exist in the app. (E.g., there's no "help" menu.) Again, I just think we need more instruction on this page. If I'm an regular user, odds are I've set a new home page for the app and I'm not seeing this startup ever again. By illustrating a drag, that's what they think they are doing; If you just wanted to remind me the panels are there, point to the edges with an arrow and illustrate the panel's contents.

Basically, the experience my wife had left her unsatisfied with it and I would suspect less likely to want to try using it again, since the browser came off as being more complicated than it needed to be. An explicit instruction on how to use the panels would have solved the confusion immediately.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
Doesn't work here with firmware 2.2.1.
See http://www.taptaptap.com/blog/10-use...ps-and-tricks/

It's tip #1.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
Maybe we can give feedback once we agree (or have weeded out) the arguments. What do you say about the compass description I gave? Does it make sense? Is it too limited?
Yeah, again, there's nothing inherently *wrong* about what's there, it just needs some more clarity.

The compass is mostly right, although the important part is making sure it matches the acceleration of the drag action. I may want to slightly reposition the page to center something and would want the fine control. But if I perform a fast drag, then the fine control should be switched off and I should "throw" the page in the primary angle created by the drag and not through every fine point within. The compass would be used to create magnetic paths that keep the drag in a good direction when the drag is fast enough to not be a "fine-tuning."
 

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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2009-03-19 , 16:05
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#44
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
You would need a manual. But everything that needs a manual is a bad GUI by definition.
Hilarious statement. If you look at European traffic signs they are mostly symbols (compare to US). You have to learn these symbols. Once you know them you recognize them quicker because as you say it is quicker processed than text. You also notice consistency. Example: a round sign with red on the outside and white on the inside has a black symbol in it. It means something is not allowed. This is all part of a HIG which was harmonized between EU countries because of inconsistencies.

The first time I heard the term 'browse' or 'bookmark' I didn't know what it was either. Or 'Netscape'. Or 'Mozilla', for that matter. I thought it was some kind of digital cheese.

If your application is for geeks and experienced users who have fun exploring it by trial and error, use symbols.
I suppose MobileSafari is for geeks and experienced users then.. but do explain how these users became experienced and how they started to use it before iPhoneOS 1.0..

And, I suppose a command line is for noobs.

Hell froze over... you got it all backwards as far as I'm concerned...

If not (and that's what we normally have), use text. If there's room for it, use both or give the user an option in the settings. That's what most applications do.
Yes although in our case there is no room for both. Just like there is no room for stylus and finger.

But I guess it's obvious Fennec is not aimed at the geeks among us, so text should be the better choice as a general rule.
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namtastic is offline namtastic
2009-03-19 , 16:10
Posts: 169 | Thanked: 38 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Brooklyn, NY
#45
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
That is what I mean. Being used to an iPhone scews the experiment.
Honestly, if this touch UI can't stand up to someone who has previously used/touched/seen an iPhone, then we have bigger problems than just "should we just have written 'swipe left for tabs' under the icon."
 

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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2009-03-19 , 17:08
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#46
Gestures are also used in conversations and meetings. They're very useful. Although I can't find a good English website about it... http://www.lichaamstaal.com/english/...l?meeting.html

Originally Posted by namtastic View Post
Yet icons need to be translated too, because there are cultural implications on those as well. Take for example the PSP: in the East "X" is an acceptance symbol, like checking off something you want.
That is what it means here too. We use 'x' or 'v' or a circle around the option for that here. Usually it tells you what to do in the description, with an example. Last time I made such a test was recently during an IQ test. Conveniently, it also explained me I should not try to make sure the whole checkbox was filled because that'd take too much time.

So you can't always avoid doing translations, and icons are never 100% universal.
True, but it is something to capitalize on. Because this marked is young it is also something to perhaps set standards on there where there aren't standards. I'm referring to UI hence HIG standards; not W3C or ISO.

The icon, on its own, is not very intuitive (My in-laws' printer has the word "power" labeled under the button, even though the button has the icon on it, for example).
Yes, here too on the printer. It has both. This also teaches the user the meaning of the icon. Or it teaches the user the meaning of the English word power. Japanese people are not able to speak English. But they can read it just fine.

It's supposed to be an abstraction of a physical toggle switch in the "up" position.
Oh! The way I saw it was like a '1' and a '0' in one symbol, with the round not complete, but if you take the '1' away it is complete. This represents, to me this: != (IsNot). I forgot the name of it.

Yeah, but that documentation *is* text, and in this case it doesn't exist in the app. (E.g., there's no "help" menu.) Again, I just think we need more instruction on this page.
Yes, or documentation in general, or getting the user to the documentation. The video is not text btw.

If I'm an regular user, odds are I've set a new home page for the app and I'm not seeing this startup ever again. By illustrating a drag, that's what they think they are doing; If you just wanted to remind me the panels are there, point to the edges with an arrow and illustrate the panel's contents.
Ah yes, with it dark from light (black to light grey) this seems like a shadow. So you know in which direction it goes.

See http://www.taptaptap.com/blog/10-use...ps-and-tricks/

It's tip #1.
I see. I had it before, but I thought what I'd do was drag that bar from top to down. Because it is very small. Since I enabled Dock after jailbreak this didn't function anymore because now this was a sunburst gesture.

The compass is mostly right, although the important part is making sure it matches the acceleration of the drag action. I may want to slightly reposition the page to center something and would want the fine control. But if I perform a fast drag, then the fine control should be switched off and I should "throw" the page in the primary angle created by the drag and not through every fine point within. The compass would be used to create magnetic paths that keep the drag in a good direction when the drag is fast enough to not be a "fine-tuning."
This becomes very complicated. Especially when keeping in mind the different resolutions and devices. This is landscape, but there are also portrait devices such as mobile phones with touchscreens. In that regard the chance you want to merely scroll from left to right on the screen is small. If there is no scrollbar visible it is 0. (Here I assume Fennec developers will implement a translucent scrollbar.) This is also not explained by the picture when you fire up Fennec. And it'd be hard to explain it.

That the bar pops up quickly, and is there fully, while the rest disappears again is also not logic. This has to be changed, but I don't know what the intention is. You could indeed explain the user to swipe harder instead. But maybe all the user wanted was the location bar. Which is then not usable. If you had multitouch you could use a second finger to touch the location bar. But lets be realistic here: this is getting too complex for practical usage.

Yeah, again, there's nothing inherently *wrong* about what's there, it just needs some more clarity.
When compiling data for bug reports and feedback you have to be precise.

Not losing what you typed in a form after a crash is a great feature of Shiretoko. Crashing however, is not.

Honestly, if this touch UI can't stand up to someone who has previously used/touched/seen an iPhone, then we have bigger problems than just "should we just have written 'swipe left for tabs' under the icon."
My point was not that it makes her experience invalid. Heck, by now there is a representable group of people who have used touch UIs. My point is merely that it scews her expectations. If we'd have a questionaire we'd make sure (using a box for crossing a 'v' or 'x') to differentiate those users who have previously used touch UIs from those who are new to touch UIs. And perhaps make sure we also leave room for the many middle grounds inbetween.

If the goal of Fennec was to be a clone of MobileSafari and have the same gestures then it'd be a very valid concern. Fennec however is not MobileSafari. Maybe some features of MobileSafari are better or make more sense. But we should give Fennec a chance. We should not try to clone MobileSafari. We should root a better product than MobileSafari. In my opinion it already has some nice benefits. Such as NoScript extension. This is what I say about RX-51 and Maemo 5 as well. We shouldn't make it an iPhone clone. We should learn from the good aspects of the iPhone and iPhoneOS instead. So that doesn't mean we suddenly ditch Hildon and start using GNUstep as base.

There is one goal of Fennec which is clearly different from MobileSafari. Fennec gives a full screen experience of the web site, but tries to make it easy for the user to get more control back. If you think of it this is great when you have web applications running. It is not good if you want to have oversight about page load, https, and quick access to buttons like 'fav', 'rss', 'back'. On the other hand if you read a few posts back I describe S60browser with all its texts about RSS and... my goodness. I can't even remember all the options it has. They're in Dutch too, while I normally browse in English and have OS in English except on my phone. Because Symbian is relatively well translated in Dutch.

So please, do not think I said the experience is invalid. That is not my opinion and not what I meant to express.
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Last edited by allnameswereout; 2009-03-19 at 17:15. Reason: add top part w/link
 
theillien is offline theillien
2009-03-19 , 17:11
Posts: 25 | Thanked: 5 times | Joined on Feb 2009
#47
Originally Posted by sachin007 View Post
This is typed on fennec. Still a lot of work to do. Browser is unresponsive for scrollong until the page loads.
This is probably why scrolling doesn't work while loading a page (from Ars Technica):
As we described in our review of the second alpha, Fennec has adopted a somewhat unusual compositing technique to draw web content in the window. The web content is loaded in an offscreen XUL browser element and is then painted into an HTML Canvas element that is visible to the user.
 
theillien is offline theillien
2009-03-19 , 17:15
Posts: 25 | Thanked: 5 times | Joined on Feb 2009
#48
Originally Posted by namtastic View Post
Yes, but there's a BIG difference between identification and instruction. Iconography is about identification.

Again, we're focusing too much on icons- or text-only, and not on whether these icons are instructional enough. The only way you'll find that out for sure is by user-testing with people who have **never used Fennec before**. We, by the very nature of being on this forum, are not valid test subjects.
I ran a mini-test with my wife, who is no dummy at computers (she is able to Screen Share into our Mac mini HTPC just fine, knows what SSH is, and does light admin of the computers at her office). I ran Fennec, handed her the tablet and stylus, and set it up as such: "Being a Firefox fan (which she is), you've just seen that Firefox Mobile is available and you've downloaded it. When you run it, this is the first screen you see. What do you do next?"

Ultimately the answer was "I don't know what I'm supposed to do." First, she thought the hand was representative of a link cursor, and thought the icons were clickable (they aren't). Then, as I suspected, she mistook the tabs icon to mean something about the Maemo environment, since (a) Maemo has a left-panel, right-content UI of its own and (b) the app doesn't start up in fullscreen mode, so you can still see Maemo's task space on the left. I kept reminding her that it was a browser, hoping that the controls icon might click with her, seeing the left and right triangles. But that's the problem as well -- they are triangles, not arrows, which is what you'd see in Firefox. Ironically, she actually dragged out the tabs panel about a quarter-way but not enough to open it up completely (so it quickly vanished), but didn't make the connection because it wasn't expected and she was too focused thinking it might do something else.

The most egregious part of all is that the location bar ISN'T IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE. This meant until she figured out the drag gestures, she couldn't even use the browser at all, not even to type in a URL.

BTW: Once I told her (and her mother who was observing as well) what the icons were, she said "Oh come on, who would figure out *that's* what they mean."
Touché
 
theillien is offline theillien
2009-03-19 , 17:29
Posts: 25 | Thanked: 5 times | Joined on Feb 2009
#49
Write-up on Ars Technica:

http://arstechnica.com/open-source/n...ta-release.ars
 
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qole is offline qole
2009-03-19 , 19:03
Moderator | Posts: 7,109 | Thanked: 8,820 times | Joined on Oct 2007 @ Vancouver, BC, Canada
#50
They are mostly going in the right direction here, but still.

Most disappointing line in Ryan's article: "The ARM port of TraceMonkey doesn't deliver the same kind of performance boost as the x86 version, but it does quite well."

damning with faint praise...
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