POLL: Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT? - Page 5 - maemo.org

Active Topics

maemo.org (1)
to Community by sixwheeledbeast - 7 hrs, 58 mins ago
Old stuff for Nokia 770 (0)
to Nokia 770 by teroyk - 11 hrs, 55 mins ago
more...

Page 5 of 10

Thread Tools

	luca	2009-05-03 , 17:52
	Posts: 1,137 \| Thanked: 402 times \| Joined on Sep 2007 @ Catalunya	#41

Originally Posted by maacruz

Ah, my little grasshopper, please pay attention.
The visual usability of GUI is affected by several factors:
- The screen: the new theme colors are almost unbearable in my desktop (big high luminance and high resolution screen) while much easier in the n810. Screen resolution and size affect the available space and layout.

While I agree that the new theme is better on the tablet, I've no problem with my other machine (a 1680x1050 lcd screen): I don't spend all day reading the titles (though I don't find them too bad), and black on white is the combination I prefer.

Originally Posted by maacruz

- The system fonts: bolder fonts make orange and gray text more readable, since the contrast is increased. On the other hand, the need of bigger fonts in the small screen causes the "right bar on top" problem.
- The room illumination: the screen background must not have excessive contrast with the room background. The eye can't be adapted to dark and light at the same time.

So, basically, are you saying that a dark theme would be better in a dimly lit room, while a black-on-white theme is only good in well lit rooms? Sorry, I don't buy it, you can adjust the backlight intensity to match the room illumination, and black-on-white is still more readable.

Originally Posted by maacruz

- And,most important, the eye of the beholder, and, you see, it is not a question of beauty, but there are such thing as old people, color blindness, macular degeneration, and many other eye diseases, so what may appear fine to you, might be unbearable to other people.

My eyes aren't particularly good (I'm 43 and myopic), but I do know they ache if I look at a white-on-black (or generally bright-on-dark) page.
When I was younger I had no problem staring during hours at a green-phosphor crt (green on black). Besides, there was no alternative

Originally Posted by maacruz

And that is why "one size fits all" is so a bad idea, and the first rule of ergonomics/usability is to allow the system to be adjusted to the user needs and not the other way around.
So, my little grasshopper, this is why so much people ask for a choice.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, I was just disagreeing to the blunt affirmation that this is an unusable eyesore: it isn't for everybody.
I agree that choice is good (in fact, if I hadn't the choice in the previous version to select the classic theme, I wouldn't have endured this forums for a long time, I already think that forums are a PITA without having to also hurt my eyes to follow one).

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to luca For This Useful Post:
timsamoff

	mullf	2009-05-03 , 18:27
	Posts: 610 \| Thanked: 391 times \| Joined on Feb 2006 @ DC, USA	#42

Black on yellow has been determined to be the most readable color scheme, that is why school buses use this color scheme. However, I have tried this on a program I use a lot and wanted to make easier to read, and it didn't look too good to me, so I tried yellow on black, and I find that excellent.

Quote & Reply |

maacruz	2009-05-03 , 22:01
Posts: 1,101 \| Thanked: 1,184 times \| Joined on Aug 2008 @ Spain	#43

Originally Posted by luca

While I agree that the new theme is better on the tablet, I've no problem with my other machine (a 1680x1050 lcd screen): I don't spend all day reading the titles (though I don't find them too bad), and black on white is the combination I prefer.

I continually use the "new posts" link, and that page is full of titles, so there the "orange issue" has a much bigger impact than when reading a thread.

So, basically, are you saying that a dark theme would be better in a dimly lit room, while a black-on-white theme is only good in well lit rooms? Sorry, I don't buy it, you can adjust the backlight intensity to match the room illumination, and black-on-white is still more readable.

Yes, you can adjust the backlight, and usually you have done so already, but remember that the screen serves many uses, apart from reading this forum, so the adjustment won't be that easy. Remember too, that everyone is different, and some people find black-on-white more readable and some others light-on-dark (I'm myself among the later).

My eyes aren't particularly good (I'm 43 and myopic), but I do know they ache if I look at a white-on-black (or generally bright-on-dark) page.
When I was younger I had no problem staring during hours at a green-phosphor crt (green on black). Besides, there was no alternative

I also stared hours upon hours at a green crt of old times.
But once cheap color screens arrived, the best color combination I've ever found (at least for me) is the old Borland theme (yellow on dark blue). Still today I use it for programming, while having to read pdf's where they force you black on white makes my eyes cry.
Of course, reading printed paper is an entirely different matter.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, I was just disagreeing to the blunt affirmation that this is an unusable eyesore: it isn't for everybody.

We all know that it isn't for everybody, I'm not saying that. What I say is that, since it is problematic to some people ("some" being a not very small number), providing a choice for them doesn't hurt anybody and solves such problems. I insist so much in the ergonomic aspect to remember everyone that we are all different, and that what to someone may be perfect, can actually hurt some other.

I agree that choice is good (in fact, if I hadn't the choice in the previous version to select the classic theme, I wouldn't have endured this forums for a long time, I already think that forums are a PITA without having to also hurt my eyes to follow one).

You understand

Quote & Reply |

	penguinbait	2009-05-07 , 20:30
	Posts: 3,096 \| Thanked: 1,525 times \| Joined on Jan 2006 @ Michigan, USA	#44

I challenge Council, Quim, Reggie, to take an accurate VOTE for the theme direction and availability for talk.maemo.org

I ran polls and now Reggie and Quim think nobody supports this and many people have since changed their minds and votes.

Take a poll, an open poll, like on ITT where everyone can see how everyone voted, complete transparency, and see if there is support for this?

Do you really want to know the truth? Lets just see what the community supports? Then we can stop all the fighting and put this behind us, maybe

__________________
To all my Maemo friends. I will no longer be monitoring any of my threads here on a regular basis. I am no longer supporting anything I did under maemo at maemo.org. If you need some help with something you can reach me at tablethacker.com or www.facebook.com/penguinbait. I have disabled my PM's here, and removed myself from Council email and Community mailing list. There has been some fun times, see you around.

Quote & Reply |

	GeneralAntilles	2009-05-07 , 21:03
	Posts: 5,478 \| Thanked: 5,222 times \| Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL	#45

Originally Posted by penguinbait

I challenge Council, Quim, Reggie, to take an accurate VOTE for the theme direction and availability for talk.maemo.org

There's no such thing as an accurate poll on forums.

__________________
Ryan Abel

Quote & Reply |

	qgil	2009-05-07 , 21:25
	Posts: 3,105 \| Thanked: 11,088 times \| Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)	#46

Originally Posted by penguinbait

I challenge Council, Quim, Reggie, to take an accurate VOTE for the theme direction and availability for talk.maemo.org

I ran polls and now Reggie and Quim think nobody supports this and many people have since changed their minds and votes.

My friend penguinbait, you keep putting words in my mouth (and now my mind) that don't belong to me. Last time I try to explain it to you.

In reality the poll is not on whether you would like to have different themes or not. The poll is about whether you think the work you are asking from others is a MUST, a SHOULD, a COULD, a task in the BACKLOG or a PROPOSAL. And what tasks the maemo.org team should postpone or demote to handle this one. And who creates and maintains the new templates.

Reggie and Andrew are already busy tuning their themes, timsamoff is tuning the maemo.org newstyle and Niels is full with things like designing a quality assurance community process to promote applications to extras.

Who else? All what these guys are saying is: can someone please go ahead and do it? At the moment Reggie is asking for no more than a mockup discussed and agreed.

If one single person comes back with one single theme that makes the discontents happy, the debate is probably over. So far, after several days of intens bla bla bla from all of us nobody has produced not even a sketch.

My opinion for a shortcut: if it runs at all, making available the default vbulletin theme can't harm. As it is, however fits as provided. Unmaintained.

Quote & Reply |

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to qgil For This Useful Post:
GeneralAntilles, timsamoff, yerga

	penguinbait	2009-05-07 , 21:54
	Posts: 3,096 \| Thanked: 1,525 times \| Joined on Jan 2006 @ Michigan, USA	#47

Originally Posted by qgil

My friend penguinbait, you keep putting words in my mouth (and now my mind) that don't belong to me. Last time I try to explain it to you.

In reality the poll is not on whether you would like to have different themes or not. The poll is about whether you think the work you are asking from others is a MUST, a SHOULD, a COULD, a task in the BACKLOG or a PROPOSAL. And what tasks the maemo.org team should postpone or demote to handle this one. And who creates and maintains the new templates.

Reggie and Andrew are already busy tuning their themes, timsamoff is tuning the maemo.org newstyle and Niels is full with things like designing a quality assurance community process to promote applications to extras.

Who else? All what these guys are saying is: can someone please go ahead and do it? At the moment Reggie is asking for no more than a mockup discussed and agreed.

If one single person comes back with one single theme that makes the discontents happy, the debate is probably over. So far, after several days of intens bla bla bla from all of us nobody has produced not even a sketch.

My opinion for a shortcut: if it runs at all, making available the default vbulletin theme can't harm. As it is, however fits as provided. Unmaintained.

I think the poll question is clear

Should talk.maemo.org create and support a dark theme like the original ITT?

In REALITY I am asking should talk.maemo.org (the entity) create and support a dark theme.

Not should Reggie do it, Not should Bundyo do it, I don't care who does it Quim, unerstand that. I think however the ownership of the work is on maemo.org. Now whether that is a Must Could Should a task in backlog or proposal, is not up to me. The poll however was clear "SHOULD"

However I think if you want heal the pain the entire change has caused to this community. I would think it's time to start listening to them and stop playing these silly games. Its really getting old.

OK, go to internettablettalk.com

mock up complete.

I personally, just want the color scheme applied to the current theme as an alternate.

However you already know that. You have come to the bug that was filed and said "you think people would be happy just getting rid of the orange text" You say this because you think it, but I show you 50+ people's support and you don't budge. Sometimes Quim, you are as stubborn as GA.

I am told a dark theme doesn't have community support. Now it has community support, and now that support really changed their minds, we don't really no how many people support it Oh and by the way, we don't care if there is support, WE DON'T SUPPORT IT.

It just goes back to where this headed days ago. I guess those on top feel they can change anything how they like, and any response to ask for a change is "fix it yourself" I figure thats how most of IT must work. I know when I give my users something they are not happy with, its no problem, they just fix it themselves.

On top of all this, I was under the assumption that Nokia had provided or was going to provide some mockups for a dark theme. However this information seems to be bogus??

This is a community right? Should I not expect to be able to provide input. Just say so, I will happily go away, but you can't say you want community support and not listen to what the community has to say.

Last edited by penguinbait; 2009-05-07 at 23:01.

Quote & Reply |

Aisu	2009-05-07 , 22:15
Posts: 662 \| Thanked: 238 times \| Joined on Jul 2007	#48

"Bureaucracy is a challenge to be conquered with a righteous attitude, a tolerance for stupidity, and a bulldozer when necessary."

I do believe that is 90% of why we can't have a few themes thrown in... There is no reason a bunch of techy geeks can't get it working in less that a day.

Proposals and voting and blah blah blah. Bureaucracy. I hate it. This is not what an open-source community should be like.

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to Aisu For This Useful Post:
Texrat

	Texrat	2009-05-07 , 22:20
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#49

Originally Posted by mullf

Black on yellow has been determined to be the most readable color scheme, that is why school buses use this color scheme. However, I have tried this on a program I use a lot and wanted to make easier to read, and it didn't look too good to me, so I tried yellow on black, and I find that excellent.

Side topic (sort of): what looks good for immediate/emergency purposes tends to fatigue the eye over longer periods.

__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net

Quote & Reply |

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Texrat For This Useful Post:
sjgadsby, timsamoff

	benny1967	2009-05-08 , 06:59
	Posts: 3,790 \| Thanked: 5,718 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria	#50

Originally Posted by penguinbait

On top of all this, I was under the assumption that Nokia had provided or was going to provide some mockups for a dark theme. However this information seems to be bogus??

This is a community right? Should I not expect to be able to provide input. Just say so, I will happily go away, but you can't say you want community support and not listen to what the community has to say.

i dont think nokia does anything here except paying the bill....

as for community: its more of an "everybody can join and work on a project", less an "everybody can decide what others should work on" (although we do have some of that in maemo.org, too).

i think that's what quim was trying to get across: everybody's open for community input, as long as it's input in terms of html+css. "maemo.org" is not an external web design company that takes orders. it's a term for "the community" which you are part of. so if you said the ownership is on maemo.org.... claim the ownership before any of the 18000 registered members does and comes up with a theme you hate even more than this one.