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geneven is offline geneven
2009-05-25 , 15:07
Posts: 5,795 | Thanked: 3,151 times | Joined on Feb 2007 @ Agoura Hills Calif
#41
I'm for abolishing thanks and post count, but I'm also for eliminating title-flaunting, which many posters do automatically.

My opinion is that people should put their titles in their profiles, so that anyone who wants to know the qualifiications of a poster can look them up. Perhaps thanks or post counts could also be automatically added to the profile.

My opinion has always been that if a credential isn't expressed in the form of a clear, cogent, informed post, it is worthless.
 
dneary is offline dneary
2009-05-25 , 15:14
Posts: 263 | Thanked: 679 times | Joined on Apr 2008 @ Lyon, France
#42
Hi,

Originally Posted by geneven View Post
To me, the basic problem is that, thru an election that I think was basically illegitimate, a group acquired a huge influence over what happens here. They don't deserve the influence, and this creates a "love it or leave it" situation.
Can you explain please how the election was illegitimate? I'm pretty new to Talk (I have come here very occasionally for specific threads, but I'm not a regular) so I have probably missed multiple discussions about this here - but I have participated in many discussions on the maemo-community mailing list on the topic, and I happen to believe that we did as good a job as possible organising and running the election. If there is an inkling of illegitimacy, I'd like to know about it.

Thanks!
Dave.
 

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SD69 is offline SD69
2009-05-25 , 15:47
Posts: 1,513 | Thanked: 2,248 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ US
#43
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
What is exactly the power that an ITt member could exercise before (under the highly appreciated and never contested benevolent dictator Reggie) and now (with the same Reggie for Talk + an alignement with the now community driven maemo-org, an alignement Reggie agrees with and helps consolidating)?
There doesn't have to be actual disempowerment; it can also be a matter of dilution. At iTT everybody was a nobody - their opinion and input generally did not matter any more, or any less, than anybody else's except as was gained by the merits of their postings on the forum. Rightly or wrongly, people no longer feel that is the current situation in the forum.

You mentioned that Reggie agrees with the alignment. Ponder for awhile who it was that he did "agree with"? It was not the rank and file users at iTT, there is some other subset of people that he agreed with. Regardless of whether he was a benevolent dictator at iTT, under not atypical management approaches that cannot continue because rank and file itt users who were not a part of the agreement have new and valid concerns and it would be better if those concerns were demonstrably addressed in some fashion. I do see from yours (and Reggie's and others') comments and actions (such as a willingness to add itt members as moderators; pursuing Krisse to contribute her tutorials) that there is perhaps some growing recognition of the need to address the concerns. I hope I have addressed, albeit in a very brief way, the issue of why things are believed to be different now.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-05-25 , 15:55
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#44
Quim, your posts were a breath of fresh air. Thanks for your sage and sober observations, as well as the acknowledgment. You made my day.
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SD69 is offline SD69
2009-05-25 , 16:03
Posts: 1,513 | Thanked: 2,248 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ US
#45
Originally Posted by dneary View Post
Can you explain please how the election was illegitimate?
At least inaccurate, Illegitimate is also too strong and charged a word in my opinion. But the takeway I think is to increase the percentage of votes. I think the process per se was fine and I recall your involvement. If necessary to increase the percentage, send more emails to the people eligible to vote reminding them to vote, etc.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-05-25 , 16:13
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#46
Originally Posted by YoDude View Post
Thank you!

And to Quim... Some times a cigar is just a cigar.

The root cause might actually be the reason this thread was created in the first place.

I thought it had to do with the responses on this forum by someone who purports to represent this community. I don't usually respond that way, you don't respond that way, most other members don't respond that way...

How can we as a community communicate to all that most find particular behaviors inappropriate and that they are NOT representative of the spirit, intent, or style of our community.

BTW I agree, it has nothing to do with whatever council a community member belongs to. I also know I am guilty of inappropriate responses at times. What isn't very clear to some is, when is that line crossed?
You are correct, and I'll provide the additional detail with another example.

There are a few outspoken members who have contributed heavily in the past and naturally find themselves in Contribution Limbo at present. I will adamantly toss the gauntlet at Nokia for this because I continue to believe that their hardware and software release schedules are counterproductive and even suicidal in a business sense (having worked there I can tell you with certainty that Nokia employees on the tail end of any release schedule are just as frustrated as you all are-- maybe more so). So they have a natural pent-up desire to DO SOMETHING with possibly no real outlet at present. This needs to be understood by council members when they respond to posts borne of frustration.

Ultimately it matters not how much power the council really has-- the perception creates its own reality. And when a given council member persistently beats up on a poster here for daring espouse a critical opinion that flies in the face of established dogma that goes well beyond what is acceptable IMO.

If anything, council representatives should be working to ensure protection against member abuse, NOT participating in it.

I'm not pulling that allegation out of thin air. If anyone wants hard examples, I can find them.

Back to my children... even as teens they're still blaming the victim when there's controversy. It's always the other guy who starts it. But conversation is 50-50; each particpator bears the responsibility for 1) making themselves clear, 2) actively listening to the other party, and 3) leaving quick judgment out of the exchange.

The council is a great idea. I'll bet no one remembers I championed the concept looong ago. It's just got off to a rough start in some ways and it loks like some leadership training would benefit a couple of members.

Bottom line: we need to allow and even foster dissent as long as it is well-reasoned and well-intended. Quit shutting down people like Penguinbait. I admit I used to have issues with him too, but every community needs a broad spectrum of input/feedback and if nothing else he represents one helluva devil's advocate when it's needed. Use that, learn from it, direct the energy to its best use-- DON'T clamp down on it. Try tolerance for a change.
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penguinbait is offline penguinbait
2009-05-25 , 16:15
Posts: 3,096 | Thanked: 1,525 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ Michigan, USA
#47
I am so so so tired. I have been trying to be quiet, like some others, but cmon Qgil?? This is not only about hardware, its not only about normal human interaction. If I had to say its quite a bit about attitudes of some council members. Reaction should be slow and deliberate, and it appears they may be learning from my interactions as of late, or perhaps they feel less comfortable taking on Texrat head on, as he is a formidable opponent. Either way its nice to see the community putting in its two cents without all the fighting.

Some feel the election was not really voiced by the people as very few people voted. This personally does not concern me, but I understand why someone could be concerned.

Changes happen that were not WIDELY discussed, and some people got upset.

I know I felt like hey, OK, I am reasonable whats the process to get what I want, I will make a thread, get some support and request council to facilitate a solution.

Most council members argue with me basically telling me, or wishing I would shut up or go away.

OK, fine, I decide lets do two things to fix this so it wont happen again.

#1
I try to get council to move to one form of communication for ALL COUNCIL business.

#2
I try to get council to have a special way to involve the community in some decisions that effect the entire community.

Both these ideas were immediately met with stiff opposition.


I am not sure what good any community council can be without ways for the community (EVERY MEMBER) to have the ability to raise concerns, reach consensus, and move agendas to council for further COMMUNITY discussions. Even if the council does not agree with them.

There is this perceived feeling by people that the Council will do whatever they think, even if the majority of the community disagrees. Whether warranted or unwarranted, this is the feeling that needs to be removed.

This can only be done by giving the community tools and voices, and transparency.

Then some of the crazy conspiracies can go by the way side, and people will feel there is recourse to raise concerns that will be rationally dealt with through some process.

No amount of new hardware will resolve these issues, it may only postpone them for a while.

Viva La Comunidad!
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To all my Maemo friends. I will no longer be monitoring any of my threads here on a regular basis. I am no longer supporting anything I did under maemo at maemo.org. If you need some help with something you can reach me at tablethacker.com or www.facebook.com/penguinbait. I have disabled my PM's here, and removed myself from Council email and Community mailing list. There has been some fun times, see you around.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-05-25 , 16:16
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#48
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
At least inaccurate, Illegitimate is also too strong and charged a word in my opinion. But the takeway I think is to increase the percentage of votes. I think the process per se was fine and I recall your involvement. If necessary to increase the percentage, send more emails to the people eligible to vote reminding them to vote, etc.
Personally I felt Dave did a bang-up job and I for one received plenty of reminders. But I can't assume that applied across the board, although I do believe he made the effort.

I'd like to see an incentive attached. Surely Nokia can cough up a device to be randomly awarded to one of the many voters? No vote like a bought vote (I kid, I kid).
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Last edited by Texrat; 2009-05-25 at 16:21.
 

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BrentDC is offline BrentDC
2009-05-25 , 17:02
Posts: 903 | Thanked: 632 times | Joined on Apr 2008
#49
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Following Texrat's trend of explaining real life experiences:

I'm the father of two little kids. They are lovely and they enjoy so much playing with each other and with their parents... except when they fight. And they fight quite regularly, actually.

The reasons for a fight can be many if you look at the surface: he is breaking the lego tower I just finished, he took my sword and ran away, he took and ate my piece of bread / no you gave it to me... and so on.

Actually the root reasons are basically two most of the times: they are hungry or they are tired or (worse) both.

The Maemo community is hungry of new hardware and fresh software. All you mention past times of community help and collaboration. Well, those were times when you all were busy with new stuff.

And a noticeable % of the most vocal guys of this community seem to be quite tired about certain things, and certain people. Because, let's not forget, all this "polarism" (as Texrat puts it) can be reduced to the discussions of a dozen of posters with hundreds/thousands of posts each.

The solution for hunger is coming and you don't need to blame yourselves since no Council or no Alternatives will change the dates.
Hi Quim!

Although the hunger theory is logical, it may not be entirely accurate. In my signature, you can see that my Nokia N800 is not the first mobile device I've owned, so consequently, this is not the first mobile device-oriented forum I've been an active member on.

I'm specifically referring to the 1src forums, which is devoted to Palm OS devices (and also owned by Reggie), and the Brighthand forums.

Now no community -- we don't even come close -- has been waiting longer for new hardware and software than the Palm OS community. And yet if you visit either of these sites, you see almost no arguing, no infighting, and new-comers are welcomed to the forums with a "Welcome to Brighthand" or "Welcome to 1src". Questions are answered promptly and politely, and no-one is asked to search rudely (I have 2500 posts between the two forums, and I cannot remember that happening once).

It's not impossible to act human, just impossible for some members here.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2009-05-25 , 17:47
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#50
I want to add something about Thanks and post count...

I have seen the complaints about both in every forum that finally reaches some sort of professional status and large size. A few will use Thanking/Rating features in spiteful fashion (I admit I've done it here once or twice) and so many get up in arms about the result.

But it's a gross error, in my humble opinion, to scrap a valuable self-regulating mechanism due to relatively minor abuse.

However, I'd like to see Thanks replaced with a point system, much like threads themselves have. That adds a bit more context. I don't always fully agree with a post but will Thank the author since the mode is black or white. But I'd rather rate at 0 to 5 points, and then see a total point sum per post.

Soem have suggested a No Thanks feature but it's there by default. If a formal method was implemented, that would lead to even greater abuse. It's better to utilize a system that induces people to only rate some degree of positive influence because "balancing" that with the opposite method can work against the goal... which is to recognize positive contributions. Negative contributions will tend to have zero acknowledgment, and they can also be addressed by the Report feature. So technically the necessary balance is there.

I also think post count needs to stay as is and not just because I talk so much (). Again, the abuses are the exception and that's life. It's very easy to sift the career spammers from... people who just talk a lot.
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