No, fatalsaint, I didn't think you and Tex are arguing. Tex and NvyUs are getting exasperated at each other over a lack of understanding.

I did not work out that contributing was the appropriate thing to do here. I worked out out that I personally want to contribute to this amazing thing that is 'Maemo'. My earliest blog posts on the subject were around wanting to feel I could join in when people said "we are Maemo". That's a factor of who I am - and I admit I'm eccentric.

For most people, "You've had support, how about giving something back to the community" needs to be spelled out. Especially since the close relationship between this place and Nokia causes a great deal of confusion - people end up thinking that support from here is part of the package they bought from Nokia (and completely ignore Nokia support forums!) Maybe people should start wearing sigs that gently hint that input is desired/expected.

As for not saying that the interfaces are not user friendly, I could turn upi a half a dozen threads just in my time here about Bugzilla, brainstorm etc and how user-unfriendly they are. The opinion of a number of people was that we like them user-unfriendly as that way they put off people who are unfit to to use them.

So we keep the tools complex to put off people who are uncomfortable with using them, and then complain that said people don't contribute.

Am I the only one seeing a problem here?

I think part of the problem will be solved once Maemo goes even more mainstream. The trouble here is that currently, due to Maemo's niche status, this is the only really good source for information.

When I've problem with my Mac, I don't go to Apple's technical support forum or Mac developer forums. I don't even need to. There are so many sites offering help and info on OSX. Same with Symbian, Windows etc. We have allready seen lot of new Maemo sites sprout. In time, and as Maemo user base grows, those will become decent sized communities and will be able absorb lot of this noise that is currently appearing here.

Please don't take the remarks of a few as consensus. That also oversimplifies the subject, Kathy. Please see my Brainstorm on User Experience for my opinions on the resolution.

Oh... he's back. I was actually reading that with interest.. and fully prepared to quote and debate every point... and then I realized it would be pointless. So I'll move on to someone else....

RevdKathy:

I understand you didn't mean Tex and I were fighting amongst eachother, but I took what you said as I am also a representation of the people that are "testy". I was simply saying, especially in this thread, I don't see that. I do see Tex being direct, and to the point in some posts - especially to Nvy - but that doesn't strike me as a "bad" thing per se.

Also this:
Exactly. You in fact spelled out my entire point right here. You are the kind of person we appreciate coming here. And if people are thinking they bought support from me just because they paid Nokia for a toy .. I seriously need to look into contacting Nokia for some reimbursement here .

As far as the end-user tools being said they are perfectly fine being *non*-end-user friendly.. I guess I missed those threads. I know I would say I personally prefer them "ugly".. but that doesn't mean I'd necessarily stop them from making it UN-"ugly" if they get enough votes and support.

ETA: I'll use the forums as an example.. I still use the "ugly" black-on-white theme. I can't stand the white/orange theme that "uniformity" took it to. However, I've no problems with it being the default... (so long as I get to keep my ugly interface too ).

The thing is, Texrat, it doesn't take too many posts like that to make the average newcomer (even a bear of very little brain) extremely nervous about using those tools. Add that to that fact that things change slowly, and the feeling is that non-tech's contributions are more nuisance than value.

There's a reason I avoid Bugzilla like ... well Godzilla. I fear the Bugsquad would hunt me down with Big Guns. Well, no, I exaggerate: I fear any bug I submit would be more trouble to the squad than it was worth.

I have seen all the Brainstorms on user-experience, improving the talk forums etc - and what I see is exactly what you describe: lack of consensus.

You're going to see diverse comments in a diverse community. You know that. Such things need to be taken with salt.

As for the rest-- we're working on it. Progress is being made. Solutions WILL come.

See and I contribute it to lack of participation. In the ones I've been apart - you get the same group of people debating the same points with no "new" input. As I said before.. 1000's of usernames.. a maximum of a dozen participators in any given brainstorm..

i understand him its just we have different opinions but both are workable solutions and one is needed b/c i don't see things getting better with N900 now only just making its way to shops for sale on contracts
oh and the fact Nokia have had a change of opinion themselves and are now advertising N900 on the London tube going back on what they said about only doing online digital marketing we are about to get hit by Wave two.
I also want to say Texrat is the number one person on here i respect, he does a hell of a lot of work for community brining new ideas and starting new programs like maemo greeters.
even when is ideas get 0 responses he comes back with something new and better never letting it stop him.
he does more community then us all combined

I'll take the hit for a lot of the Brainstorm noise. I misunderstood the direction for the recent changes. I may in fact scrap some of mine and start over.

Neat discussion...

If you want people to stick around, then the marketing of Maemo has to include that the product is a product of the community. If you will, do more to encourage feedback in the marketing, reviewing, and developing of the device and its platform. For example, contests where people can contribute ideas based around a tightly wound set of criteria (Nokia's current widget contest comes to mind), is one way to do this.

The personality of this forum is no different than any others. And as its been said here, a community can only continue growing down a certain road for so long before it needs to - for the betterment of all - become several communities. This community can still serve as a hub, but thinking that this will go back to the way it used to be is what got AOL and Netscape in trouble with their communities.

Keep up the Brainstorm, Maemo Greeters, karma optimizations, and other efforts. Those aren't in vain, nor do they point to something unable to be reconciled. There will always be louder portions of communities which are here for a short time, but loud in that time. Continue to foster open communications - such as this thread - and the core persons who visit/member will continue to be places to fix the bus while its running.

Lastly, no forum continues on forever with all members being daily contributors. Many are able to take the lessons learned here and apply them outside the forum - and that sometimes takes them away from here in presence, but not in spirit. Be open to letting go, and transform your action-set here to enabling people to take Maemo out of these walls. Its radical enough of a proposition that it just might be the filter this conversation is looking for towards the future of this community.