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2010-05-16
, 08:56
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Posts: 1,751 |
Thanked: 844 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Sweden
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#42
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
Well.. THERE IS a complete way of uninstalling and THERE IS a complete way of resetting (i.e. flashing) so i do not know why you are bringing this up. Sure.. in windows the programs do not get fully uninstalled but that doesn't make it true on Linux systems. I had to format my windows drive aprox every 6 month before because of the sluggishness that brought me.
No way am i wrong because the very problem is the app does not un-install completely in some cases as it has already done its damage to the os, hence why sometimes the reboot makes the loop and brick situation happen.
Extra set of programes?? just a COMPLETE uninstall would be sufficient and remember the goal is to get back the os as it was prior to install.
If you know anything about windows and i am sure you do why do we have regedit? your comments are not founded i am sorry to say.
The problem here is people installing programs from devel that are not finished. Thus might break the system. And they are not complaining as they know what they have done. They just need some guidance how to fix it.
You are referring to programs that are not fully uninstalled.. please name one.
Last edited by AlMehdi; 2010-05-16 at 09:07.
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2010-05-16
, 08:58
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Posts: 726 |
Thanked: 345 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
@ Sweden
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#43
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@abill_uk
Take some time and think about what actually happens during installation with a package manager. Then think some more about how one would go about to actually roll it all back to EXACTLY the same state as before the installation.
Not wanting to bog you down with too much thinking, I'll give you some hints:
- The file system keeps track of modification times. This isn't easy to roll back in a sane way. Do you want this too?
- If I install package Foo and then package Bar and realize I want to uninstall package Foo, how should that be handled if both packages have changed the same file?
The package manager relies on a database where every package has to truthfully enter which files it contains. Much of this is done automagically while building the package, but some packages are sneaky. Like the rootsh package, to name one.
If a package is sneaky, there is no way for the package manager to actually uninstall it properly. So, the idea is to test a package, see if it behaves as intended (including uninstall) and then propagate it to more users. If enough testing has been done, it will most likely NOT fsck up your device. If people want to cut the line and get in early, since curiosity is a great driver, it's up to them.
Blaming the community when people install beta software and get into trouble is just counter productive. And yes, you are blaming the community. You won't get new interesting applications on your device by STOPPING the testing that is needed since a stricter test cycle than the one in place already would kill so much enthusiasm.
Wanting to change things because people are stupid is ... stupid.
Take some time and think about what actually happens during installation with a package manager. Then think some more about how one would go about to actually roll it all back to EXACTLY the same state as before the installation.
Not wanting to bog you down with too much thinking, I'll give you some hints:
- The file system keeps track of modification times. This isn't easy to roll back in a sane way. Do you want this too?
- If I install package Foo and then package Bar and realize I want to uninstall package Foo, how should that be handled if both packages have changed the same file?
The package manager relies on a database where every package has to truthfully enter which files it contains. Much of this is done automagically while building the package, but some packages are sneaky. Like the rootsh package, to name one.
If a package is sneaky, there is no way for the package manager to actually uninstall it properly. So, the idea is to test a package, see if it behaves as intended (including uninstall) and then propagate it to more users. If enough testing has been done, it will most likely NOT fsck up your device. If people want to cut the line and get in early, since curiosity is a great driver, it's up to them.
Blaming the community when people install beta software and get into trouble is just counter productive. And yes, you are blaming the community. You won't get new interesting applications on your device by STOPPING the testing that is needed since a stricter test cycle than the one in place already would kill so much enthusiasm.
Wanting to change things because people are stupid is ... stupid.
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2010-05-16
, 08:59
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Posts: 1,637 |
Thanked: 4,424 times |
Joined on Apr 2009
@ Germany
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#44
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
Most applications don't need this. This is for what the application manager is good for.
One of the most important part of ANY application developed for the N900 or any OS should always have a COMPLETE uninstall option that is simply either not taken into consideration not working or not implemented within the app itself.
Maemo is based on debian and the debian package manager.
No need for an uninstall option in every application.
Originally Posted by abill_uk
Can you be a bit more specific. Which application has damage your OS and wouldn't do so if it had an uninstall option. Maybe
The countless reasons now for re-flashing are becoming more and more apparent and all down to bad programming that is either NOT checked out properly with enough field testing or checked for un-installation PRIOR to being released as a credible installable application on this forum.
we can contact the developer and find a solution.
This is the reason why we are here. And this is the reaseon why developer put their applications in extras-devel,
and why some users are willing to use the extras-devel repository.
This is a very lively process and we have a great community to help and assist developing and testing new applications.
nicolai
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2010-05-16
, 09:02
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#45
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
The warnings are clear enough for anyone capable of using the device.
If this situation is looked at properly and implemented in the right way to actually stop people from installing dangerous untested apps (and some tested i might add!) then i am sure their will be a lot less bricked, rebooting problems occuring on this forum.
And no matter what, people ignore highway caution signs, go without safety goggles when doing dangerous work, speed on icy roads and generally do all sorts of stupid $#|+ despite being well aware of the likely outcomes. I'm not in favor of babysitting them all. Let Darwin deal with the ones who refuse to follow safeguards.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-05-16
, 09:10
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Banned |
Posts: 3,412 |
Thanked: 1,043 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#46
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Originally Posted by S0urcerr0r
Your ranting does not hold any weight whatsoever for many reasons....
abill_uk:
there are thousands of cellphones available - one of them is the n900.
the n900 is officially unlocked and open for installation of any kind of applications. there are no restrictions. this means for example that we have full access to the hardware - incl 3dacceleration gpu, camera (tweaks and codecs (how about a theoretic 720p mjpeg recorder with dyn focus), phone applications (how about mms), usb (maybe even host) and dual boot possibilities... they even made it possible to overclock the cpu (!)
...AND the best of it all is that it doesnt require any jailbreaking or other ugly methods... we have official allowance from nokia to do whatever we want with our phone. they only supply the hardware with a os setup, and we take responsibility about the software. that makes this phone unique.
this is why i bought the n900... this is THE feature most of us have been waiting for which convinced us to buy the n900.
if a newbie buys the most advanced phone in the market without understanding how/ and that they should make proper backups - then thats just plain stupidity.
as long as its possible to unbrick the phone with certain methods there is actually no problem at all - its the same scenario with any advanced PC.
one phone in the market have been enginered exclusivly for us who wants the most extreme, advanced and raw computer experience, and you want to take that away from us.
people like u have other advanced but more restricted systems like android or symbian as an alternative, or just dont enable devel and testing, and there you go.
the N900 may well be open to a degree but is no way a complete open system as we dont have access to every driver so therefore we cannot deliver clean apps when indeed their is vital driver info missing !.
Engineered for "us" WHO? the N900 for your information is available to everyone in this world and guess what.... just about everyone does indeed buy the N900 frrom geeks to kids so the responsibility as you put it is exactly that , being responsible enough to at least make the apps of our own making un-installable so we can carry on without being subject to uneeded loop and brick situation, ok for you it may well be fun but for others who are not able to put it right its a nightmare.
Finally people like ME are trying to be sensible here and find a way of easy installation UN-INSTALLATION techniques to lesson the problems because of bad development that does not indeed have the much needed un-install files written within the apps.
Now please do explain something to me here... since when does a properly written app that can be UN-INSTALLED in a way that leaves the os as it was before take anything away from a half open system we call the N900?.
For your information also i would hardly call the N900 "most extreme, advanced and raw computer experience" (your words not mine) because it sure does lack many many advanced components available today and for my opinion is a very badly designed mobile device purely from the usb port perspective which will in fact end the design of your "most extreme, advanced and raw computer experience" as Nokia have obviously realised the bloomers they made manufacturing this N900, but thats another story aye so we will try to stay on topic if thats possible?.
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2010-05-16
, 09:14
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Posts: 762 |
Thanked: 395 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ Helsinki
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#47
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I believe the OP hasn't really understood the concepts of "open software development" and why some repositories remain hidden. I mean obviously if he's gotten most of his files from these forums, then he hasn't figured out enabling the repositories. Therefore he doesn't know about how these apps are developed or just "how things work around here".
The developers on these forums have no responsibility over what their programs do to users' phones, unless they release their software in any other way besides through "testing" and "devel". These forums are a even more murky platform of releasing anything.
You have only yourself to blame for not being informed!
Last edited by cjp; 2010-05-16 at 09:18.
The developers on these forums have no responsibility over what their programs do to users' phones, unless they release their software in any other way besides through "testing" and "devel". These forums are a even more murky platform of releasing anything.
You have only yourself to blame for not being informed!
Last edited by cjp; 2010-05-16 at 09:18.
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2010-05-16
, 09:14
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Banned |
Posts: 3,412 |
Thanked: 1,043 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#48
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Originally Posted by nicolai
Then you will have to sift through all the problematic issues software related to find out just what apps are giving problems as i just dont have the time nor the access to every bit of code written for apps to the N900 sorry.
Most applications don't need this. This is for what the application manager is good for.
Maemo is based on debian and the debian package manager.
No need for an uninstall option in every application.
Can you be a bit more specific. Which application has damage your OS and wouldn't do so if it had an uninstall option. Maybe
we can contact the developer and find a solution.
This is the reason why we are here. And this is the reaseon why developer put their applications in extras-devel,
and why some users are willing to use the extras-devel repository.
This is a very lively process and we have a great community to help and assist developing and testing new applications.
nicolai
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2010-05-16
, 09:16
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Banned |
Posts: 3,412 |
Thanked: 1,043 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#49
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Originally Posted by Texrat
LOL whats that got to do with a clean un-installable app?.
The warnings are clear enough for anyone capable of using the device.
And no matter what, people ignore highway caution signs, go without safety goggles when doing dangerous work, speed on icy roads and generally do all sorts of stupid $#|+ despite being well aware of the likely outcomes. I'm not in favor of babysitting them all. Let Darwin deal with the ones who refuse to follow safeguards.
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2010-05-16
, 09:16
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Posts: 124 |
Thanked: 52 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Sweden
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#50
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abill_uk:
i understand your concerns... for example the unofficial kernel upgrade packages that tinkers with some serious stuff (this happens for example when installing "mobile hotspot" or overclocking apps).
i can see how problems can arise when we finally install the PR1.2 update on top of a kernelmodded n900.
however - the n900 is a raw and advanced computer, and devel/extras is intended for a experienced endbase (just like all the warnings says).
therefore i dont want any moderation regarding what i can install, or not.
but of course its always good if apparent potential dangers are mentioned in the "package description"
n900 is the successor to the n810 and therefore its completly fair to stay on the same advanced path without your proposed moderation of what can be installed and what not.
ure just trying to transform the n900 into another newbie phone (just like the other 1000's phones out there.
Last edited by S0urcerr0r; 2010-05-16 at 09:25. Reason: new post
i understand your concerns... for example the unofficial kernel upgrade packages that tinkers with some serious stuff (this happens for example when installing "mobile hotspot" or overclocking apps).
i can see how problems can arise when we finally install the PR1.2 update on top of a kernelmodded n900.
however - the n900 is a raw and advanced computer, and devel/extras is intended for a experienced endbase (just like all the warnings says).
therefore i dont want any moderation regarding what i can install, or not.
but of course its always good if apparent potential dangers are mentioned in the "package description"
n900 is the successor to the n810 and therefore its completly fair to stay on the same advanced path without your proposed moderation of what can be installed and what not.
ure just trying to transform the n900 into another newbie phone (just like the other 1000's phones out there.
Last edited by S0urcerr0r; 2010-05-16 at 09:25. Reason: new post
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All times are GMT. The time now is 06:09.
Why do you think there are warnings everywhere for extras-testing and extras-devel?
Why do you think there's all this testing and voting method here?
And most importantly, why do you think those repositories are named the way they are.. TESTING and DEVEL as in DEVELOPER (only)...
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Last edited by bandora; 2010-05-16 at 08:57.