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2014-07-16
, 02:51
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Posts: 254 |
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Joined on Nov 2011
@ Canada
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#42
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Originally Posted by Win7Mac
I don't recall seeing any announcements or discussions on TMO about this aspect. Can you share the reason why Nokia has prohibited hosting of images and flasher tools? It's clear we cannot, but the reason is not clear. It might help everyone understand what has been asked for and why it has been denied.
HiFo is the legal owner and operator of *.maemo.org and its' infra. This was settled in the agreement with Nokia and will be in effect when our obligations have been fulfillied and approved by Nokia which still holds all trademark rights. The agreement basically is a lifetime license to use the trademark and sadly prohibits HiFo from providing images and flasher tools, no matter the server or domain name. So no, we cannot hire or pay for a 3rd-party host.
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2014-07-16
, 05:44
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#43
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Originally Posted by jalyst
Do you think that Nokia, and MS are solely limited to US lawsuits? Nokia arguably has MORE legal sway in the EU that it does in the US.
You've misread it, I said nothing about hosting...
Was talking about dismantling the current regime & establishing hifo (or something like it) from the ground up again, but this time outside the US?
BUT, that's only on the proviso that we have 100% certainty on the points I made prior to it, which you don't seem to have, right?
Any group with the legal authority to accept the rights needed to continue running Maemo will have the liability to it's membership (or at least it's leadership) around the hosting issue. Who's going to take on leadership positions if there's that level of liability waiting in the wings?
__________________
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
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2014-07-16
, 05:49
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Posts: 569 |
Thanked: 462 times |
Joined on Jul 2010
@ USA
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#44
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Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=14
I don't recall seeing any announcements or discussions on TMO about this aspect. Can you share the reason why Nokia has prohibited hosting of images and flasher tools? It's clear we cannot, but the reason is not clear. It might help everyone understand what has been asked for and why it has been denied.
The legal issues are real, the internet "I'm a cowboy, we're all cowboys & laws don't matter" postures are irrelevant.
Last edited by rotoflex; 2014-07-16 at 05:57.
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2014-07-16
, 06:46
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#45
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Originally Posted by Android_808
When someone is making legal threats against the legal entity formed to hold/host Maemo, and the Board members that run it, the community has the right to know that. They also have the right to know when someone is being intentionally misleading to try to prop up their own interests/ego, against the interest of the community itself.
Woody and joerg, just like pali, fmg, mag, smoku to name but a few, you two are big names in the community. for smaller devs like me, think about the negative impact this kind of behaviour has.
from respected members of the community, i'd expect to see better.
I invite you to judge what I say. I've earned the reputation I have, for better or for worse, because I say where stand, how I feel, and lay plain the plan and path I see as the best way forward. Look at my track record, and decide for yourself where my loyalties are.
I'll note: I have nothing to personally gain or lose from any of this. I have no interests in anything here, business or otherwise. I'm disassociated from the whole thing, have been for some time. That's not to say I want to see it all vanish, quite the opposite. Just that I'm not frankly all that impacted if it does.
My true interest here, now and from the start, has been purely to allow the community to continue, if not flourish.
Recall my reasons for my first run for Council: My goal was to make the process more public and transparent, because there was an overwhelming complaint that it was all too closed and secretive. I pushed for weekly meetings, in a public channel, and promised timely minutes to the community. I followed through on that for my full time as Council. I have more posts on Council blog than the rest of all the Council chairs/secretaries in Maemo's history combined.
Now of course, the complaint is that things are too open, and that too much of the sausage making is visible. That too much of the "dirty laundry" and day to day operational items are visible. Quite the contrast, no?
My intention has always been toward helping the community. My method has been to keep as much as legally possible public and open. The one thing we could sadly not do that for was the Nokia negotiations. That was not our desire but Nokias, as they are a publicly held business that runs in a world where being too open can be financially damaging. Even then we kept that circle as widely open as we possibly could, and pushed constantly to widen the scope of it to keep others outside the Board informed. That bit us on the *** many times, as those that got part of the information often wound up fabricating worst case (and not true) scenarios and running about screaming how the end was neigh and HiFo was dooming us all via contract.
Anyway, it boils down to this:
When I see something going bad, that will impact the community if nothing is said, I speak up. When I see hypocrisy and bad intent, or people spreading damaging false information, I call it out. I'm not perfect myself, I screw up at times. But when I do so, I admit it, try to reconcile it, and move on. Because my intent is always to move the community forward.
If what you're reading here impacts you negatively, I'm sorry. But if you didn't read it now, I suspect the negative impact would be far greater down the road. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be here discussing it.
__________________
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
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2014-07-16
, 07:19
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#46
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Originally Posted by shawnjefferson
It's been discussed in TMO a few places, mainly threads where people were asking for where to get the images when the documented site went down (tablets-dev.nokia.com). It was discussed in Council meetings as well, and in the general channel on IRC. There has also been ample discussion of it among techstaff, as they were involved in fixing and then disabling the parts of the system that allowed access when Nokia made the legal request. It was even discussed on the official Nokia help board.
I don't recall seeing any announcements or discussions on TMO about this aspect.
I could see where a casual forum reader could have missed most/all of the discussion. But then most also missed that there was an election, despite being bannered, stickied, and discussed for over a month.
The images have been off-line for over 6 months, and were out about as long during initial migration. If that didn't draw the attention of a casual forum reader, I'm not sure how else to do so.
__________________
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
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2014-07-16
, 14:22
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Posts: 7,075 |
Thanked: 9,073 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
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#47
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
Yeah, we don't want a **** show like this in off-topic. Please move. Keep off-topic clean.
@moderators: please move this thread to "General".
It's indeed a highly relevant topic and not really off-topic for this forum.
plus it seems some users refuse to use this thread and rather coninue spamming other threads with answers and arguing about this thread, where such answers and arguing are really off-topic.
Let's move threads back and forth depending on latest post
__________________
Do something for the climate today! Anything!
I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
Do something for the climate today! Anything!
I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
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2014-07-16
, 16:46
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Moderator |
Posts: 3,718 |
Thanked: 7,419 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Bize Her Yer Trabzon
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#48
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Originally Posted by joerg_rw
How ironic, you're the one that kept spamming us to move the thread to off-topic....?
@moderators: please move this thread to "General".
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2014-07-16
, 16:50
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Posts: 1,203 |
Thanked: 3,027 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
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#49
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Looking foward then woody, as you understandably have objections to our infrastructure hosting or officially linking to the original images files, what do you see are our options should the current alternative (nds2.fds-fire) disappear?
Random links posted within TMO are always going to happen. As joerg has already stated, to which I agree, these are a potential security risk to anyone who uses them. Files from nds2.fds-fire server may not be around forever, and there is always the risk of corruption during download. To ensure the images that people are using are correct, as a first plan of action can we add size and md5 info to the wiki for all known variants and then prevent that page from being edited. I can find for uk variants at the moment but if I recall others may have been on tablets-dev.
Random links posted within TMO are always going to happen. As joerg has already stated, to which I agree, these are a potential security risk to anyone who uses them. Files from nds2.fds-fire server may not be around forever, and there is always the risk of corruption during download. To ensure the images that people are using are correct, as a first plan of action can we add size and md5 info to the wiki for all known variants and then prevent that page from being edited. I can find for uk variants at the moment but if I recall others may have been on tablets-dev.
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2014-07-16
, 18:39
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#50
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Originally Posted by Android_808
Again, understand, this has nothing to do with me. This has to do with what is legally allowed of individuals. The way the terms of the EULA and licenses with Nokia are written up (from device launch, long before HiFo even existed), only Nokia has the legal right to distribute the images. For anyone else to do so, be they an individual or a corporate entity, is illegal. It's illegal in the US, in the EU, hell, it's probably even illegal in China.
Looking foward then woody, as you understandably have objections to our infrastructure hosting or officially linking to the original images files, what do you see are our options should the current alternative (nds2.fds-fire) disappear?
Reality is that there will always be a P2P market for such items. Doing illegal things at a personal level, taking that risk on your own, is something people do all the time. Every time you push a yellow light, or jay walk, or any other number of things, you make a choice to do so knowing there could be legal consequences.
My objection is that in this case those that are whining about it, and pushing to take this action are not willing to take the liability or risk on their own selves. They instead want others to take on the risk for them, but when called on to step up and take a leadership role that would include them in the liability, they quickly decline.
There were multiple, extensive attempts to find a solution for this that would allow the images to be readily, publicly available. It was in fact the single largest reason for why the process dragged on as long as it did. In the end, Nokia simply would not (or could not) agree to any number of proposed solutions, and had no proposal of their own for how to do this.
Originally Posted by Android_808
It also is potentially a legal risk for those legally responsible for maintaining the service. Just as BitTor sites that did nothing but list the hash files for shared items, listing a link can be criminally prosecuted. And in reality, the company pushing it doesn't have to even win in court. They simply have to out-last the coffers of those defending, which in the case of HiFo means about a week, with a really cheap lawyer.
Random links posted within TMO are always going to happen. As joerg has already stated, to which I agree, these are a potential security risk to anyone who uses them.
Originally Posted by Android_808
That's actually a really good idea. This is something easily done, and verifiable by multiple sources. The risk in this is actually quite low (despite the fact that that's really the same thing as DHT files under the hood). Something to bring up at the next Council meeting, or to take on as a project yourself.
To ensure the images that people are using are correct, as a first plan of action can we add size and md5 info to the wiki for all known variants and then prevent that page from being edited. I can find for uk variants at the moment but if I recall others may have been on tablets-dev.
__________________
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
Maemo Council Member: May 2012 - November 2012
Hildon Foundation founding member.
Hildon Foundation Board of Directors: March 2013 - Jan 15, 2014
Last edited by woody14619; 2014-07-16 at 18:48.
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[thanks]<click>
:-D
/j
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N