Is this about <specific usernames>? I hope not, both poll and idea are general. I wholly agree with your post and opinion on this forum, though see no issue with having more transparency actually in place

Maybe you all missed my point as i never though that jalyst deleted or edited my post for personal reasons or vendetta, at least i think so. What actually concerns me is that mods are more comfortable with editing or deleting lately and they do not feel like they need to give any explanation in any cases. And that's what bothers me. Though it happens to be same moderator, i still have no personal and even any other problems with him, what i have a problem with are certain cases that i afraid not happened only to me and i bet it might happen with other mods. I just think it's important topic and should be discussed, so mistakes wouldn't be done in future.

Thanks for sharing with us, much appreciated!

Can you please explain it better to a simpleton like me? No sarcasm intended, I am having real difficulty finding the info in my profile page. All I can see is statistics and contact info but not the list of deleted posts. Is it something that only moderators can see? Or are you talking about a different profile page?

I wanted to respond long ago, but I’ve been “flat tack” lately… :-/

I had a very lengthy response that addressed multiple things levelled at me, most of which were: flat-out wrong, highly debatable, or right -but with a reasonable explanation. It also outlined in great detail, several actions that I’ve taken, the processes that took place, the reactions, & my subsequent actions & thinking. I’ve decided against doing all of that because in doing so; there was no way around getting equally personal & finger-pointing in places. Plus it’d open things up to further examining, cross-examining, interpretation, & mis-interpretation, which I just don’t have time to burn on. The time I was spending at TMO was already at its limits, & lately has been quite a bit more than I’d hoped.

Instead, I’ll make a general statement;

I won’t be drastically changing the way I’ve been doing things, if I’m completely honest with myself I’ve only ever taken decisions to the best of my judgement, & that judgement “by & large” has been sound. I’ve never been subversive or “supportive of one team over another”, never. Maybe in some peoples eyes it’s seemed that way, but it’s certainly not something I’ve done deliberately, or even subconsciously IMHO. I’ve only ever tried to ensure that a healthy & constructive level of debate occurs, anything that goes too far beyond the spirit of that I’ve sometimes moderated/tempered.

This public airing changes little about how I operate, my core approach remains the same. I won’t be here as much to put that into action, but I’ll no doubt get reports, & I’ll still be popping in of my own accord occasionally, so if/when I see behaviour that goes too far, I’ll take action. It’s always possible to counter or convey some points, without getting too personal towards one or more people, it’s always possible to stick to the main thrust of a thread’s topic, without persistently digressing. One thing that will change about my approach; if a move’s occurred & there’s genuine confusion (i.e. not immediately hostile & accusatory) & the report tool’s used to politely explain why you disagree, then I’ll certainly review the decision ASAP & make any changes if/where needed.

In my prior post I explained why an edit note wasn’t left in this one instance, & I conceded (& explained) why such an approach is error prone, hence I said that I’ll do it for all edits from now on, no matter the context or situation. Generally I’m fine with some digression, especially if it’s humorous or light-hearted, but if it becomes persistent to the point that it deserves it’s own thread in another or the same sub-forum, or in the OT sub-forum, then I’ll act. When things get too personal my threshold is generally a bit lower. If there’s still some good points being made & it’s completely topical, then I’ll edit & leave notes. If it’s too personal or OT (or both), & it doesn’t seem to fit in the current or another thread, then it’ll be deleted. Oh, & as was repeated throughout this thread after I clarified what really happened; I’ve never edited posts for spelling or grammar reasons, that just makes no sense to me. Of course, the never-ending battle with SPAM remains a constant, & is something I’m sure we can all 100% agree on.

Let me clarify too personal; too personal is levelling insults or labelling people with unflattering names, too personal (IMO) doesn't include the occasional use of colourful language to express oneself, I personally have no problem with that if it's not directed at anyone. Too personal is directly attributing some negative traits to someone, whether well-founded or not. Too off-topic: if Fred addresses an OT side-point that John makes, but to the exclusion of everything else that was in John's post, there's a good chance Fred's post will be moved. Especially if Fred's post provokes a series of completely OT posts addressing his OT (but contextually legit) post. Whatsmore if users engage in light-hearted OT banter that carries on for several posts or more, that may also be moved.

Is my "entire definition" of what’s personal & OT slightly different to other folks? Probably. Is my line for crossing into too personal/OT slightly different? Probably. Have I ever crossed that line? On 1 or 2 occasions lately I have, on a few more it’s debatable (for those instances I had a detailed rationale, but as explained I’ve decided not to elaborate), BUT on-the-whole I haven’t. Can I do better? Of course. I would hope that I remember the standard I expect of others, & not get sucked into setting a bad example by feeding in situations where I shouldn’t, or reading too much into things where I mustn’t, or getting overly personal myself. Will I forever do that from now on? Probably not. On occasions I’ll mis-step, but far more often than not I’ll hold to that standard, it’s a fine line to walk sometimes.

Whatsmore, we all have different interpretations of situations that’s based on; prior interactions (perceived or known) with one or more users, & where we sit fundamentally in our overall “life view”. As a mod, far more often than not I don’t let such things cloud my judgement. If on-balance it’s poor behaviour but I agree with the general sentiment or points being made, then I’ll take action, if it’s poor behaviour & I don’t agree with the points being made, the same remains true. Just so there’s no perceived “conflict of interest”; in the future if I feel someone’s getting too personal with me, & in a manner which seems entirely unprovoked, instead of moderating myself I’ll report them & leave it for other mods to judge.

To those who think there’s some sort to of bias going on, why don’t you try me, just once. Try using the report tool or PM if you think something happening isn’t acceptable. Just be sure you’re not in part responsible for that poor behaviour, if you are I can’t guarantee I’ll “take your side”. I’ve never given infractions or bans (except for SPAM) & I don’t plan to any time soon, only if folks relentlessly behave poorly, are completely non-cooperative, & extremely rude/threatening will I contemplate that, but even then my preference would be to defer to a super-mod/admin. On the matter of open mod logs, if I understand what’s being proposed I don’t see why not, I’m not sure how workable/practical it is, but if something practical can be devised then I’m all for it, I’ve zero to hide & I’m confident of the vast majority of my actions.

For some of the commitments I’ve made above I might need the occasional reminder, so if/when needed by all means politely refresh my memory. I wipe the slate clean of any hard feelings towards those who’ve levelled accusations & insinuations (however well-founded or not), life’s too short to harbour anxiety/bitterness. Plus, I simply don’t have time to get into a hugely detailed “who’s on the right side of the narrative” thing, such things are never that binary anyway. Apologies in advance for not addressing any new posts directed at me in this thread, I’m no longer subscribed & hence won’t be following, I’ve said all that I intend to say.

Best Regards.

I wasn't sure if I should join this thread at all; there's a high chance that whatever I write here comes across as whining.

Anyway, the fact that I don't actively take part in discussions here any more as much as I used to has several reasons. Overmoderation certainly is not the most important one, but it does have an impact. There's just no point in participating when, right in the middle of a heated discussion, your post plus some of those that support your point of view mysteriously disappear. Of course you could complain, find out who it was, fight the system... But after so many years it's no longer worth it.

I ALWAYS add a note at the end of the post why I edited a post, so I'm a good mod

some proof:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...88#post1469188
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90094
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...27#post1460527

Sorry if I came around the wrong way before, I just don't see the point in this discussion, it was triggered by jalyst commenting on edits of other posts as they where quoted and he then changed the quote and did not comment there too. In general the mods are held to be transparent about their actions but not to the public, just to the one that has been moderated, you have to enter a reason to delete a post (that should actually be visible to the poster, if not let me know, some stuff in vB is not working like expected). I will have a look into what I can show and what not, but only as in showing Mod's Names on the bottom and maybe change the way users get notified about deletion and edits. The 3 new mods (most recent, they are not really new no more) were overambitious in the beginning and needed to turn it down a bit, I actually liked it that they "took care" but normal users didn't like to be moderated at all. I don't know what benefit you see from a moderator-log apart from keeping me busy with setting it up. As any more detail than "Mod# has edited/deleted post in $Section" is invading users privacy, yeah you say moderation is invading privacy, sure but that you gave up on the gates. We are talking about reducing MCeV registration to be anonymous as possible and on the other side you want a tool to track misbehaving users/mods (you could track both with just enough detail in the logs, cross-referencing). Infractions and deleting posts are behind the curtain things between mods and users and should not be made public knowledge.

We are a small group and I usually take sides when it comes to a dispute, that side is Maemo. What I did not like with all this discussion atm is that it feels pretty much like kindergarden, "he took my shovel and despite my name on it I did not find it on my hook, oh it was just put upside down... well did not see that." where the response would be "Next time look closer please."

In the end it breaks down to, you want to know what mods do with your stuff... if a Mod passes by and you do not understand the action, maybe just ask. In this case Jalyst wrote whole freaking sentences giving reason for the edits and still there are complaints, I had a 1 minute look at the thread and understood all changes made and it wasn't even my business. Please be reasonable. You may use the "Report This" button on your own post if you do not know who is to contact for moderation. If it gets out of hand I usually already know about it but you may also use the "Contact Us" form to get a direct line upstairs. Please be so kind and add links when using the form as it does not always parse the right link with it.

So for example, if an edit note is missing on your post, use the Report This function please and ask for an edit note, be nice! I sometimes forget to put one in too, we are all just humans.

it's community forum, mods should at least at some degree care about it and at least some changes should be done as this is not their personal site they run as they think it suit them. Surely many can say it's winning or kindergarten, but how many just stop writing or leave the forum as it's not "cool" nowadays to rank about it.
After all people that are this forum asked for review and changes, at least of a knowledge of problem, but the vibe I get is - take it or leave it. It's pity how community site turned into site ran by group of people(though most of the time the do the job right) on their own decision, and if you say anything about it, you are pointed finger on you and called child. Just take a note that any problem you get can be pointed as kindergarten, for example bunch of people that were given responsibility to look over and making mistakes, but when told, they take it personally and tell "I know better, I do what I think is right", sound like teenager to me, who would never listen. (sorry for this example, I just think it's better to explain in their own understandings).

The whole thread is not about "was this case right to edit/delete", but about overediting/deleting, abusing it and over controling deciding what is good and bad for everyone. You make this kindergarten, not us!
And prove my point you can see the latest activity on TMO and see it's going down and think little bit more, till you left to moderate each others

Unfortunately, I agree with @ZogG .
Of course, I dont necessarily its because of the mod issue. Nevertheless, there is a decrease in activity, which is sad.
Other reasons exists. Like the organizational changes, which have also raised both fights and worries.

Some lines going OT:
Yes, you asked for change on that topic, so I did ask those moderators to turn their "see fit" moderation down to "is necessary" - kindergarden is that 2 moderators overthrew, explain themselves in +5 PMs/posts, get me involved and this still being made an elephant. Better ask council to get their code of conduct rolling than pestering about those moderation issues that are actually resolvable by talking, so I talked. Now I learn that there are complaints about not being able to see deleted posts again, this time, their own posts deleted by themselves...
Activity on talk is on average the same ever since we moved maemo.org infra... some highs when Jolla announces something or some Neo900 things get moving but that's about it. It is equal to new forum registrations, avg since move, some highs with Jolla... That some active people left this community has more to do with missing common ground and common sense so council discusses code of conduct options (or at least did).

Back to moderation:
There was close to no moderation without the request for moderation by a user via the "Report This" button, mostly trouble, sometimes moving threads. Now we have some moderators that actually try to have the place calm and clean and look out and all for a sudden you recognize moderation, you being edited too. Here comes the thing, it was no harm done but people wondering if harm was done as they did not understand what was going on, adding to this was that all mod edits got re-edited by the original poster (without edit note btw). So what should I do, force edit notes upon users? I asked the mods to be 100% transparent on their actions, I explained to you that if questions arise you may ask for explanation and told the "right" way to ask, that you already did that and acted stubborn offensive before seems to me to render this a personal issue. So what do you need more? Rules to orient on? How about common sense and the forum rules? You get edited if someone is offended, you get deleted when you troll, you get banned if you overdo any of it. Simple isn't it? We are talking about 4 active mods, the rest of us is basically silent until something bad happens... so if talking to 4 people in a sane manner is asked to much I don't know how to help this, do you?