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2016-02-17
, 08:34
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#42
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Originally Posted by wicket
Of course I was being a little facetious, and seem to have enraged a fair few people
The discussion on what makes a good OS is entirely subjective, but I will say this... Anyone who thinks that QNX (BB10) is not a "real OS" should leave this thread and go and learn something about operating systems before returning.
This thread is alternating between discussion operation systems and entire mobile distributions. I would say that QNX/BB10 is a fine operating system at its core with a great pedigree, but that the distribution offered to Blackberry users is hobbled to the point where I would rate it as equivalent to a console OS.
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2016-02-17
, 08:41
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@ Switzerland
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#43
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Originally Posted by gerbick
I've tried to. I think you may have misunderstood my initial statement, which is why you think I'm changing direction. All I can do is reiterate it. Jailbreaking is a ridiculous status quo we seem to have arrived at where a user must use a security exploit to access certain parts of the operating system. The specifics of what those parts are and what you might do with them doesn't really matter, because whatever it is may be one day unsupported, broken, have a massive security hole in it etc. The fact is that you're locked out of something you own, and locked out of being a user of your device, which is against the very idea of an operating system.
Nothing personal, but you've shown me nothing in this regard yet. All I've seen are some rather esoteric needs that really equate to what your parameters are... sadly, I stated as much in the need for granular control. It's important to you. I get that. But in the end, you cannot defend your stance for jailbreaking... yet.
That's how I feel, and if you want to dismiss that as esoteric and trivial, then fine. It's enough for me to justify my position on these things. I learned to code by poking around inside the home computers of the eighties, seeing how they worked and breaking them. I fear that the next generation won't be able to.
But as for the much more interesting comparison of the different OSes:
Originally Posted by gerbick
Browsers are applications, and are not part of the operating system! The Sailfish browser is a default - it can be replaced and there are many replacements available. Personally, I agree that it's not very good - the lack of copy paste support in the browser and many other longstanding annoyances are baffling. I haven't engaged in the discussions on its repo myself, but I've seen that suggestions are often dismissed and vaguely agreed to then ignored. I wonder if it hasn't got a hint of the gnomes about it.
Sailfish browser is second class, renders a lot of HTML5 sites incorrectly and defaults to mobile on the tablet. The pkcon vs zypper install methods oft do not capture all dependencies if you've inherited a shitty program from Openrepos. The permissions are done great, but that's really the brilliance of Mer.
Btw, if we're really discussing operating systems, we're really talking about Mer. There's not a lot to Sailfish in the OS context that isn't Mer, unless you want to discuss the oddness of Silica (which I won't disagree with).
Last edited by billranton; 2016-02-17 at 08:49.
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2016-02-17
, 09:32
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Community Council |
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Joined on May 2012
@ Southerrn Finland
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#44
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Originally Posted by wicket
QNX I know ant it is a good solid OS base, no arguments there.
The discussion on what makes a good OS is entirely subjective, but I will say this... Anyone who thinks that QNX (BB10) is not a "real OS" should leave this thread and go and learn something about operating systems before returning.
However, as Blackberries are so marginal thing in europe I have never held one in my hand even, just seen pictures. The brand never really got mainstream here.
Originally Posted by wicket
Matter of opinion. That's what they said about Linux back when I first installed 0.9x-something back deep there in the last millenium.
As for running Hurd on phones, it's x86 only I'm afraid so that severely limits your choice of devices.
What's the current state; Linux competes just about neck to neck with BSD as the OS supporting most architectures ever...
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2016-02-17
, 10:34
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Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#45
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Originally Posted by billranton
I think this is the crux of our disagreement. You think that the very idea of an OS is to allow the user to play with the OS. I think that the very idea of an OS is to provide the core functionality, but otherwise stay out of the way.
The fact is that you're locked out of something you own, and locked out of being a user of your device, which is against the very idea of an operating system.
In your world, the more of the OS you can access the better. In mine, the less you have to access the better. (Except when with my developer's hat on, of course
)I do not know about BB. Never played with one, although I have seen a few and liked them to the point of considering one. But I have a long experience with Palm OS. I used a Palm phone for nearly 10 years. Yes, the same phone. During those 10 years, I had never felt the need to go down to the OS. That's how well it was designed. It fulfilled all my needs and stayed out of the way.
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Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2016-02-17
, 10:54
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@ Switzerland
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#46
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Originally Posted by pichlo
I understand, and even slightly agree with that position, thanks for summing it up nicely. I just don't buy into why we can't have both? I don't see that the latter necessarily excludes the former. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. I'm not against locked doors, as long as I have the key. I can put it in a safe place so I don't go in there by accident and smash all the crockery, but I still wish to have the right to open that door on my own device. It was the best innovation of harmattan: Developer mode.
In your world, the more of the OS you can access the better. In mine, the less you have to access the better. (Except when with my developer's hat on, of course
The reason for this is not consumer oriented. The claims of the added safety and security of a locked-out system are secondary excuses - the real reason is control. Control of software sources, protection of licensed media, managed obsolescence, etc etc. That's why the big guys do it. It gets them more money, so big guys are also the ones with the resources to do the intense QA required to deliver an OS that 'just works', while the little guys who want to provide something open don't. That's the cause of that perceived lack of overlap between stability and openness, they're not mutually exclusive as concepts.
I worry that they've nearly won in the mobile space and the battle's well underway in the PC space too, as people shun general purpose machines for appliances. Playstations and mainstream tablets tick your requirement very well, and as the PC becomes even more niche, we won't know what we've got until it's gone.
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2016-02-17
, 11:33
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#47
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Originally Posted by billranton
As much as Silicon Valley is trying to push this idea that the PC is obsolete, so far nothing 'better' has come (I doubt something ever will), and the PC remains a staple in the Western household. Hipsters wearing Google glasses and an Apple watch while listening to their Beats headphones in an Uber taxi ride may think they're trendsetters moving humanity to utopia, but they're really just a bunch of weirdos.
and as the PC becomes even more niche
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2016-02-17
, 16:43
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#48
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Originally Posted by billranton
You said that you needed to jailbreak the OS. I've asked why. You haven't supplied an answer yet. Do I need to quote your statement again?
I've tried to. I think you may have misunderstood my initial statement...
which is why you think I'm changing direction.
All I can do is reiterate it.
Jailbreaking is a ridiculous status quo we seem to have arrived at where a user must use a security exploit to access certain parts of the operating system.
The specifics of what those parts are and what you might do with them doesn't really matter
The fact is that you're locked out of something you own, and locked out of being a user of your device, which is against the very idea of an operating system.
That's how I feel, and if you want to dismiss that as esoteric and trivial, then fine. It's enough for me to justify my position on these things.
It's "nice to have" not "need to have" for me. But it's important to you; I get that. But on a handset, I want it to be able to receive and make a phone call in the least. If I tinker with my handset, miss a business phone call... that counters its uses. And if I need to code or tinker with FSO, I can do so via the Sailfish SDK without losing my ability to answer a call.
I learned to code by poking around inside the home computers of the eighties, seeing how they worked and breaking them. I fear that the next generation won't be able to.
Browsers are applications, and are not part of the operating system!
Btw, if we're really discussing operating systems, we're really talking about Mer.
There's not a lot to Sailfish in the OS context that isn't Mer, unless you want to discuss the oddness of Silica (which I won't disagree with).
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2016-02-17
, 17:13
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Posts: 229 |
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Joined on Sep 2010
@ Permanent cruiser - either water- or motorways
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#49
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Originally Posted by billranton
+1
I'm not against locked doors, as long as I have the key. I can put it in a safe place so I don't go in there by accident and smash all the crockery, but I still wish to have the right to open that door on my own device. It was the best innovation of harmattan: Developer mode.
well I've been using both (BB10 and SFOS) for more then a year now as my two daily drivers - to be honest for a while I ditched the BB for my old N9 as the different gestures for BB10 and SFOS confused me sometimes - but not for long ...
Best about the BB beside the hardware (Z10 full touch - wich is outstanding and after 3 years still in perfect condition (changed the battery once) good display, hdmi out, solid USB (Nokia never managed that ;-) ) and decent camera (wasn't good in the first year but seemed to be software related as its much better now)) is the touch keyboard - for me the best one in the market - and of course the hub - it is a communication machine and that is what it is made for - if you have to answer to loads of mails and texts from different accounts every day on the road you won't find anything better ...
Beside that the calendar isn't really brilliant (well it's better now than in the beginning) - will there ever be something like agendus has been on PalmOS?
Everything else is just BB - not shiny, works as expected but lacks many "nice to have" things you might never really need ;-)
The android support is not half as good as the one on SFOS and you have to take the OS as it es except a few hacks and headless apps that can replace or add some system functionality...
Best about Jolla is the dev mode, freedom for those who want it. Plus a real good implemented android support (I know everybody wants native apps and getting rid of android but unfortunately there isn't a native app for everthing now - so it counts) followed by the UI - yes I like the UI for me it feels natural (BB10 doesn't - you get used to it but it's not what I would implement) - it's much more fun to use and of course it's fun to play around with the system as it is on a Linux desktop - a time wasting fun but fun :-)
So what? I like them both - Blackberry for its un-nerdyness and Sailfish for being what it is - kind of a home brew with ups and downs - follow the xfce way - it's ready when it's ready - as long as won't take as long as e17 ;-)
Btw I'm writing this on an iPad ;-) - replaced my BB Playbook with this a year ago after backing the Jpad ... But that is another story ;-)
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2016-02-17
, 19:59
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@ Switzerland
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#50
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Originally Posted by gerbick
I've tried to give you an answer in every single reply. Every time you've ignored me, not addressed any of it, and moaned that I'm not answering you again in a really grumpy, condescending way, and I'm getting really tired of it.
You said that you needed to jailbreak the OS. I've asked why. You haven't supplied an answer yet. Do I need to quote your statement again?
Originally Posted by billranton
The specifics of what those parts are and what you might do with them doesn't really matter, because whatever it is may be one day unsupported, broken, have a massive security hole in it etc. The fact is that you're locked out of something you own, and locked out of being a user of your device, which is against the very idea of an operating system.
Originally Posted by billranton
Please tell me which parts you're having trouble with.
Again, it's not that they need to jailbreak it. It's that jailbreaking shouldn't even be a thing. Locked down operating systems are for DVD players, games consoles and other peasantry. For your specifics, see everything that people got around aegis to do.
As for running Hurd on phones, it's x86 only I'm afraid so that severely limits your choice of devices.
DebiaN900 - Native Debian on the N900.Deprecated in favour of Maemo Leste.Maemo Leste for N950 and N9 (currently broken).
Devuan for N950 and N9.
Mobile devices with mainline Linux support - Help needed with documentation.
"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." - Henry Spencer