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gerbick
2010-07-06 , 02:28
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#51
Originally Posted by YoDude View Post
In the US this seemed to come about once Apple had a product that was compelling enough so that their terms could be dictated to the service provider in exchange for exclusivity. Google then created free services that the service providers customers want but for an exclusive period of time, are only available on the Android OS.
Then MeeGo needs to do the same. Be compelling enough to avoid having stuff ripped out of it.

I really hope I am misreading the intent of your post, because it sounded like to me that MeeGo is being designed to give these service providers the ability to lock out selected services until additional fees are paid by the user.
If this is true, then MeeGo will fail.
 
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YoDude is offline YoDude
2010-07-06 , 02:36
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#52
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Then MeeGo needs to do the same. Be compelling enough to avoid having stuff ripped out of it.



If this is true, then MeeGo will fail.
I'll copy over my edit to the post you quoted for continuity...

EDIT: I also just realized that you (qgil) could be talking pure hardware and in that case new development could be stifled by the limitations of these existing OS's. That is, a new technology could wither on the vine if Apple or Google do not plan to support it.
In that case an OS that is modular and can be scaled up or down depending on a vendors needs would be a huge advantage.
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Last edited by YoDude; 2010-07-06 at 02:39.
 
gerbick
2010-07-06 , 02:44
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#53
Thanks. Didn't see your edit.

Call me odd, but I think they're just situating themselves to be a handheld/tablet distro that can accept a KDE/Gnome type of UI replacement scheme (think HTC Sense UI on top or/really replacing Android's UI) and go from there. If that's the case, that'll work just fine, will limit the fragmentation somewhat...

Regardless. I'll have to resort to patience and see how this will all play out. I don't think MeeGo will hit the gate running... Android didn't, WebOS didn't... Moblin didn't, Maemo didn't.

But a slow start might prove to be what they need to do for some hardware to fall right into place; namely CPU/GPU refinements (no telling what that really means... just that current hardware is too even across the board now).

Just treat as speculation. Nothing I said above it probably even close to the truth. Just thinking aloud.
 
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qgil is offline qgil
2010-07-06 , 05:59
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#54
Sorry, I thought my short post was clear but you read many other things.

You agree that MeeGo's success will be based not only on Nokia's steps but also on the involvement of sevedral device vendors and sedveral operators in several countries including the USA. This is what most of the posts of this thread imply.

Alright, for this to happen MeeGo needs to convince those device vendors and operators. Most of this thread discusses the user point of view, also the developer point of view. But what about the point of view of these few but very powerful players? Ask yourselves how happy are they with other platforms, how good are the MeeGo competitors for their businesses. And ask yourselves whether MeeGo has more or less chances to fit in their business strategies.
 
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Kangal is offline Kangal
2010-07-06 , 06:54
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#55
Originally Posted by ndi View Post
Then with all due respect to the said dev, they are lacking perspective. Look at those speeds up there. With ARM being roughly one-on-one as computing power per MHz with x86, I dare say it's ready to be upgraded.
You failed to see that Cortex A8/A9 was not commercially available/in retail so it makes great sense. What we had was ARM11 and only upto 800MHZ speeds and partnered with GPU chips that gave something like 4M polygons/sec. So the computer your refering to is in comparison to the A8/A9 or is just a really really old (Pentium 2?) PC.

Originally Posted by ndi View Post
Sure x86 isn't power efficient, but many of us just want a full day out of the device, and by full day I mean 9 to 18, that's 9 hours. As for power, trust me, 600 MHz is nough to run XP if you forgo the eye candy. I have compact PCs that run XP on a Geode at 500 MHz and, while gaming isn't great, it fulfills its role as a viable PC, with full-on browsing, Office, minigames, installable software and an app base the size of China.
Actually x86 architecture has some "extras" that aren't necessary or used for mobile scale devices. Intel has made great improvements over the last 5 years. For instance, N450's are same/slightly better than the N270's but increase battery life from a previous 5hours to now 8hours average (6cell 5000mAh) on a netbook. My SU7300 runs Win7 smoothly and offers some gaming potential and I get 6hours of average use, just enough for an entire day. The new and upcoming Z-series brings a blimmer of hope (>99fps Quake3 reported), but I rather look forward to Dual core (28nm) 2GHz A9 with new PowerVR graphics (say SGX543MP8).

Originally Posted by ndi View Post
What exactly are they paving? Portable Linux is Linux slimmed down, not the other way around. As power grows, it will be slimmed down even less. effectively reversing what MeeGo does. I can't see this future thing you speak of.
Well Linux has a whole lot of legacy behind it. I havent heard that it would be a slimmed down Linux, only that it would be made to boot within the magical minute time and be light of its feet to work on lower-powered devices (ARM11, <1Ghz Celeron/Atom, RISC etc). I think we have made some great advances in CPU & GPU technology but these advances are actually old. For instance, Cortex A8 was probably designed several years ago and is only new to commercially. My point is that, somewhere this growth sprout will end and we will be using the current generation architecture for some more years until the next growth sprout. So the field will be to support MeeGo if maturity occurs and its resources (slimming down) may be put to use on other things such as the RISC architecture (one of the slowest evolving when compared to x86 and ARM). Just an example, the N64 emulators out there were optimized many times over the years and those efforts are the same reason you can have it working on a mobile device or fullspeed on the "slow" Atom processor.

Originally Posted by ndi View Post
That's nice, but unattainable. You can't out-sexy Apple devices because they were built in reverse from style up.
Can't out-sexy Apple? Impossible is Nothing. And there's no need to out-sexy, you just need to be on par with them but also have something they don't to attract customers/developers like cross-compatability.


Originally Posted by ndi View Post
Let's just say easier said than done. That's your plan, out-sexy the Apple, out-feature Android and out-support WinMo? If they could do ANY of that we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Always is easier said then done. But what you need is to come to par on the sexy (hardware & software attributes) and come to par with features (multiplatform cross-compatability) against Android. This ensures people will buy and adopt so it won't be a failure. But making it a great success (Borat!) will require one step further with OEM support, carrier support and probably something else special. Right now MeeGo has one thing extra to offer and that's native applications. Sure Android has NDK but even that is limited, to certain standards that its still half java-half native meaning the performance gain was not worth the economical effort.



Originally Posted by ndi View Post
I have no idea what Ubuntu users will do, but there's no way in hell you can displace XP while offering no Office (easydebian is not MeeGo and OOo for Arm is no MS Office x86) , no commercial apps (all 4 of them), no app base (compared), an everchanging UI and an Alpha software. XP is closing on 10 years. If it's been writtten it either runs on XP or has a clone onto it.
MeeGo is a brand new OS platform and I think the basics such as Office, Web browser, Media Player, File Manager will be supported. Again you don't need MS Office (x86) if you have a worthy alternative for instance OpenOffice (just an example I know that requires significant processing power). They've come public that an App base will be ready out-of-the-box be it based on the OEM or Intel's AppUp (which would probably be the primary MeeGo App base). Again the UI is not ever changing, infact its tightly locked and Apps must follow withing UI guidlines. The different versions of MeeGo will have the different UI, and I still think there would be enough resemblance between them later on.


Originally Posted by ndi View Post
And finally, even of MeeGo has the magical fairy dust needed to push away Android, iOS (which is wishful thinking with their dedicated hardware base) and even WinMo, let's not forget that while MeeGo is pushed halfheartedly by Nokia, the rest are pushed full-heartedly by even bigger players. I doubt Nokia has the horsepower, let alone the fact that they seem to be conserving fuel and running several things at once.
Yes I doubt it too, Google to Nokia is a bully to a nerd. Which is ever more important that they really put effort in. If they make MeeGo magical then combine it sexy-hardware of many forms (smartphones, handhelds, GPS, tablets, TVs, netbooks etc). Also Nokia is still #1 phone provider, and realistically HTC #1 smartphone provider, so 2011 will be the boxing-match and they need to come with big guns before other competitors rise (RIM, HPWebOS, WinCE6, WinPhone7).
Good Luck MeeGo, you will be needing it.


edit: As a consumer I really would settle for Froyo on decent hardware (Moto Milestone level) but as a nerd I look for a Mobile Console/Phone/UMPC device with MeeGo.
 
Wichall is offline Wichall
2010-07-06 , 14:00
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#56
UI looks like iPhone OS with a different theme....

I'll stick with Maemo.
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gerbick
2010-07-06 , 15:20
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#57
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Sorry, I thought my short post was clear but you read many other things.
Miscommunication seems to be par for the course in these parts.

You agree that MeeGo's success will be based not only on Nokia's steps but also on the involvement of sevedral device vendors and sedveral operators in several countries including the USA. This is what most of the posts of this thread imply.
By "several" device vendors and "several" operators in several countries; do you mean that you're looking for which hardware manufacturer is unhappy with the status quo and can become a partner with Nokia?

Let's be honest. There's you, Intel and LG that's known right now. LG GW990 already canceled the only MeeGo confirmed device that's been shown mere days/weeks after it was announced. That looks worse than it probably is due to nothing else coming out and being shown beyond the handset UX - which runs on a device we don't have access to or the N900 - and that build we didn't expect much more than a developer's build.

But as it stands, let's think about running off what you do know. Most carriers are looking at ways to either lock a person in or keep them on their network by any means necessary - and that means either removing features (boo!) or subsidizing (in some cases, yay!) or by having compelling features that make folks want the phone something fierce.

Let's start there. What does MeeGo have that the average owner would want? Freedom? Pfft, most people are sheep. Linux? Pfft... most people don't care what's OS is running on their phone as long as it works. But let's think about it... why did Samsung bring out an Android phone? Don't they have Bada? What about Motorola? Didn't they invest into SavaJe? They did so because those OS's didn't shape up, congeal into a mainstream offering either fast enough (Bada is still coming, SavaJe is long dead) and they didn't deliver an UI experience that's scalable from the cheapest phone to the most expensive phones.

Now, approach them. Show them they can still deliver Android and MeeGo enabled phones. Let the sales dictate what they should do after the introduce a MeeGo phone. It worked for Android and Motorola. From Droid, to Droid X, to upcoming Droid 2.

Alright, for this to happen MeeGo needs to convince those device vendors and operators. Most of this thread discusses the user point of view, also the developer point of view. But what about the point of view of these few but very powerful players? Ask yourselves how happy are they with other platforms, how good are the MeeGo competitors for their businesses. And ask yourselves whether MeeGo has more or less chances to fit in their business strategies.
Until you can say without a fact that you will be able to fit better into the corporate world - FULL Exchange support and provisioning among other features - then what will you offer them instead? I mean, seriously... from your perspective what do you think you guys need to do? We're mainly developers and fans here. Tell us more than we know at the moment and a large percentage of these folks will follow. If you need to ask us about what needs to be done to gather more information about what your vector of attack should be... what are you considering?
 

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ndi is offline ndi
2010-07-06 , 15:25
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#58
Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
You failed to see that Cortex A8/A9 was not commercially available/in retail so it makes great sense.
I did not. Nor did I mean they were available, but that it would have been obvious that they would become available soon. I see no reason 2 years ago to not foresee today's hardware today. I, for example, foresee 1.5 GHz for 2011. They already exist, but are not available. With OSs becoming increasingly clunky, it's bound to go up.

Let's not forget N900 has a 1GHz CPU, throttled down for thermal and live expectancy reasons.

Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
but increase battery life from a previous 5hours to now 8hours average (6cell 5000mAh) on a netbook.
Which is, IMO, enough. Let's not forget N900 doesn't have a full day autonomy. When used, it expends its useful battery lifetime (starts at 80% with overnight drop and ends at about 30%, as I want to make calls until the night).

Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
but I rather look forward to Dual core (28nm) 2GHz A9 with new PowerVR graphics (say SGX543MP8).
I rather look forward to that, too

Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
My point is that, somewhere this growth sprout will end and we will be using the current generation architecture for some more years until the next growth sprout.
OMAP3430 was demoed in Feb 2007. I'm thinking end of sprout rather than beginning.

Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
Always is easier said then done. But what you need is to come to par on the sexy (hardware & software attributes) and come to par with features (multiplatform cross-compatability) against Android. This ensures people will buy and adopt
This may work for you. And me, it would work for me too. But this is a thread about MeeGo making it, and by making it it has to do more than cause a few nerds to go wild. It needs to sell en-masse, and it will never outshine Apple not because it's not as sleek or as nice, but because people will keep upholding IP4 as the pinnacle of design as a matter of principle and history.

Also, IP4 is quite simplistic. That's their key, simplistic and elegant. Be more simplistic and you look like stone age displaced.

To beat the fruit you need not one device, you need a name to rival Apple in design, and Nokia couldn't do this in its glory years. Frankly, it still can't. They're ugly. They have their charm and their Nokia look, but the devices themselves are ugly.

E.g., N900 is thick and bulky. Also, the plastic kickstand and cam cover makes it look like a copy. I like bulky because I want the keyboard and battery+keyboard+screen don't get much thinner. I love it, as bulky as it is. But let's not kid ourselves. Beauty contest it's not. And same goes for UI.

Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
MeeGo is a brand new OS platform and I think the basics such as Office, Web browser, Media Player, File Manager will be supported.
Yes, when? Maemo can't edit a spreadsheet. And it's not a new affliction, either.

Originally Posted by Kangal View Post
Yes I doubt it too, Google to Nokia is a bully to a nerd. Which is ever more important that they really put effort in. If they make MeeGo magical then combine it sexy-hardware of many forms (smartphones, handhelds, GPS, tablets, TVs, netbooks etc). Also Nokia is still #1 phone provider, and realistically HTC #1 smartphone provider, so 2011 will be the boxing-match and they need to come with big guns before other competitors rise (RIM, HPWebOS, WinCE6, WinPhone7).
Good Luck MeeGo, you will be needing it.
IMO, an optimistic view. I don't see MeeGo in any boxing matches, unless you count Muhammad Ali vs The Nerd a match.

You see MeeGo spreading like the plague of small devices, but Maemo had years and has spread to precisely what had no choice. I'm closer to seeing my next TV run iOS than MeeGo. Actually, my next TV will probably run a slim Linux, that's open, free, non-animated and fast. Actually, that's what my TV runs now, if you believe the about box.

My problem is that I'm not all that optimistic even of MeeGo would be magical. And, let's face it, thus far Nokia has managed to get less out of OSs this far, not more.

To be frank. I'm hoping to skip this whole puberty of mobile platforms and by the time I upgrade N900 I'd get an x86 and install whatever I want. Man that'd be sweet.
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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2010-07-06 , 15:43
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#59
well, when it comes to meego and vendors. There is a lot of vendors, But few with real power and customer base. If you look at the market. The fact that there is almost as many OS as vendors, Meego must be good enough to convince some of the vendors without "its own OS" to move to meego.

Meego will work on other sorts devices with alot of vendors, However, from my part of view, noone choose a phone after what software you have in your tv or car(will be several years before that software here is more importent than the phone).

So again, I'm looking forward to see some real vendors join meego. As you can see I'm sceptical. But really hope meego will be a success.
 
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2010-07-06 , 15:45
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#60
as far as hardware vendors go, I think meego could be attractive to all the same ones that android is attractive to now, motorola, samsung, LG, HTC

they will take meego core and slap on some chrome, decals, and a few value addedd integrated apps and call it meegoblur or meegosense ui, etc. I think these vendors will also appreciate a little more the ease of adaptation to hardware vs android. I think winmo probably has the easiest hardware adaptation.

as for the carrier situation in the US, what a horrible situation. CDMA probably will not die for at least 2 more years as everyone transitions to LTE hopefully, so I don't think Nokia is going to go after the locked in Sprint/Verizon market and they are #1 and #3or4 in US subscribers. perhaps some of the other manufacturers might do cdma hardware though so as long as meego spreads wide and Nokia sticks to its unlocked guns, I will be happy.

Where intel fits in this, i don't know. Either tablets or other direct powered devices(car nav entertainment, TV) or they have a great mobile chip in the works. IMO intel would be wise to get a serious chip out there with all the requisite mobile feature set. I have got to believe they are working on it. If they can make a winner, they will blow ARM out of the way with their scale.

worldwide if you combine the scale of intel+nokia+(some other large device manufacturer like samsung or LG)

I think the future for meego is good. they are taking the track of android which is blowing by iOS as we speak, only more open and more adaptable.
 
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