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2011-09-05
, 20:53
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Posts: 187 |
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Joined on Aug 2010
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#51
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^to be fair though, WP7 wasn't meant to be run on an HD2. (unless you meant HD7, then good point.)
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2011-09-06
, 05:31
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Posts: 1,789 |
Thanked: 1,699 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
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#52
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Originally Posted by tkatchev
No it is the BEST decision. I used to agree with you, but after careful consideration I cannot.
Reverting from MeeGo to Windows is a bad decision. Windows Phone is dead, and Nokia is dead with it.
Microsoft doesn't care -- in two years they will abandon the current incarnation of Windows Phone only to move on to their 'next best thing', Windows TabPhone XP 11 or something. Microsoft has been doing this for the last 15 years already, and they can easily continue doing the same for the next 15.
Nokia doesn't have two years to play along with Microsoft experiments. In two years Nokia will be bankrupt or bought out.
If Nokia waited for MeeGo, then Nokia would only have Smartphones selling at the rate of Samsung's Bada (which isn't as bad as some think). But in the long run, WP7 would improve and surpass Bada and become the third largest ecosystem (or tied with RIM).
If Nokia chose Android, it would cause a monopoly and Nokia's gains would be short term as Samsung and other manufaturers would have enough leverage against Nokia.
If Nokia chose WP7, they have a shot at long-term victory. While it is a very narrow shot, it's the only one they have. And this time Microsoft has changed its game, it is beyond its Windows Mobile days, it knows the value in mobile systems, and the risks concerning ecosystems.
The BEST decision NOKIA could've made was to contribute (highly) to the MeeGo-Projekt and also buy Palm. As I've listed in this post, doing so would make them number three in the smartphone marketshare by the end of this year. But Nokia's internal miscommunications, misjudgements, and poor choices lead them to resort to a Microsoft assfuc!
Maemo + Moblin + WebOS = magic!
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2011-09-06
, 06:28
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#53
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Originally Posted by Kangal
I'm pretty sure I can disagree with your assessment. Maemo/MeeGo COULD have done quite well with a persistent push and a strong backing from a company as big as Nokia HAD been at the time. The move toward Windows Phone 7 is precisely why Nokia is no longer the company it was and trending toward a less and less relevant player. So far, WP7 hasn't been a winner for anybody else, much less a company that, itself, is quickly losing brand loyalty and value.
No it is the BEST decision. I used to agree with you, but after careful consideration I cannot.
If Nokia waited for MeeGo, then Nokia would only have Smartphones selling at the rate of Samsung's Bada (which isn't as bad as some think). But in the long run, WP7 would improve and surpass Bada and become the third largest ecosystem (or tied with RIM).
If Nokia chose Android, it would cause a monopoly and Nokia's gains would be short term as Samsung and other manufaturers would have enough leverage against Nokia.
If Nokia chose WP7, they have a shot at long-term victory. While it is a very narrow shot, it's the only one they have. And this time Microsoft has changed its game, it is beyond its Windows Mobile days, it knows the value in mobile systems, and the risks concerning ecosystems.
The BEST decision NOKIA could've made was to contribute (highly) to the MeeGo-Projekt and also buy Palm. As I've listed in this post, doing so would make them number three in the smartphone marketshare by the end of this year. But Nokia's internal miscommunications, misjudgements, and poor choices lead them to resort to a Microsoft assfuc!
Maemo + Moblin + WebOS = magic!
Similarly, buying WebOS from HP would have done them no favors--it's the same dying, whithering atmosphere that surrounds Maemo/MeeGo right now. The same effects and discussions would have revolved around that, with the exception, maybe, of the possibility of being far more open-source leaning... but then, Nokia hasn't shown that they're interested in that aspect of Maemo before except as a PR stunt to puffer themselves up to developers and FOSS enthusiasts, why start now?
I would also question your judgement about labeling the use of Android as a monopoly. Is iOS suddenly irrelevant? What exactly makes the use of a highly customizable open system monopolistic? Is it the Android Market? Last time I checked, there are a myriad of Android devices that don't use it (including such well known brands as Archos and Amazon's new upcoming tablets). Certainly, it would be far less monopolistic and monoculturist than the Windows Phone 7 they chose to go with. I imagine an Ovistore on Android would be far easier to implement and far more sought after by even non-Nokia devices, if they played their cards right. What a missed opportunity by the shortsighted executive dunces at Nokia!
I, personally for all that's worth, think that Nokia would have done well to have stopped dribbling all over themselves as if they were developmentally challenged with the idiotic "this is step 4 of 5" and instead of putting so much effort into making SURE you couldn't separate the closed-source from the open-source to produce a hobbled closed-core trap... instead had placed all that time, resource and money into PROMOTION and actual DEVELOPMENT for an open-source friendly device and promoting it as the power of FOSS open-source servers in a tiny pocket-sized piece of kit... I'd bet THAT would have done wonders for everyone involved.
Well, so long as Eflop is in charge, that ship has sailed. Nokia, you could have been a contender... instead, you're sitting in the corner diddling yourself while everyone else is off learning, inventing and having fun. Windows Phone 7 isn't your savior... you watch.
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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2011-09-06
, 06:48
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Posts: 500 |
Thanked: 437 times |
Joined on Nov 2009
@ Oklahoma
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#54
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So, where are all the MeeGo tablets?
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2011-09-06
, 08:26
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Posts: 1,789 |
Thanked: 1,699 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
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#55
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Nice comment tzsm98 
Dan, the thing I'm trying to push here is the most probable outcomes, and HP/Palm is at the centre of it.
Within ~10 months (Apr-Jun 11), HP was able to transform the WebOS system, and make adaptations for its devices.
And HP has less experience than Nokia when it comes to creating an operating system, let alone an ecosystem.
However, HP's future with WebOS has come falling down simply because the market was late, HP didn't have enough contracts to pick it off the ground, there was many promising competitors, and public interest was low. The software was, scratch that, is really top-notch, it is the rest of the package which fails to deliver.
The example with HP is just to show that an effective software and promising hardware are not enough. You need the entire package; third-party support, availability, marketing, the works. Consumers are used to brands, which is why Apple is dominant. And Elop is actually right, consumers are also considering the ecosystem these days, not just the device.
Additionally, WP7 is more of a dumbbed-down-smartphone-os than iOS, or WebOS, or Android. And Nokia is the king of feature-phone market share, so the two really go hand-in-hand.
So the question must be asked, did Nokia have what it takes to create a new (MeeGo) operating system by Q2 2011?
-Yes, definitely.
Could it have created an (effective) ecosystem by Q2 2011?
-Definitely not.
The only way Nokia could have created an effective ecosystem, truly is if they beat Microsoft (or at least tied) to the market. And even then MeeGo may not have been enough. If they were the winners of Palm they would have enough effort to scrape up a new ecosystem. They would also have a noticable third-party support, a footing in the North America market and stand against Apple's litigation with ease.
Dan, the thing I'm trying to push here is the most probable outcomes, and HP/Palm is at the centre of it.
Within ~10 months (Apr-Jun 11), HP was able to transform the WebOS system, and make adaptations for its devices.
And HP has less experience than Nokia when it comes to creating an operating system, let alone an ecosystem.
However, HP's future with WebOS has come falling down simply because the market was late, HP didn't have enough contracts to pick it off the ground, there was many promising competitors, and public interest was low. The software was, scratch that, is really top-notch, it is the rest of the package which fails to deliver.
The example with HP is just to show that an effective software and promising hardware are not enough. You need the entire package; third-party support, availability, marketing, the works. Consumers are used to brands, which is why Apple is dominant. And Elop is actually right, consumers are also considering the ecosystem these days, not just the device.
Additionally, WP7 is more of a dumbbed-down-smartphone-os than iOS, or WebOS, or Android. And Nokia is the king of feature-phone market share, so the two really go hand-in-hand.
So the question must be asked, did Nokia have what it takes to create a new (MeeGo) operating system by Q2 2011?
-Yes, definitely.
Could it have created an (effective) ecosystem by Q2 2011?
-Definitely not.
The only way Nokia could have created an effective ecosystem, truly is if they beat Microsoft (or at least tied) to the market. And even then MeeGo may not have been enough. If they were the winners of Palm they would have enough effort to scrape up a new ecosystem. They would also have a noticable third-party support, a footing in the North America market and stand against Apple's litigation with ease.
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2011-09-06
, 09:19
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#56
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Originally Posted by Kangal
Kangal, I don't think that what you were outlining was probable, however. (Did you mean possible?) Let's talk probable outcomes, though...
Nice comment tzsm98
Dan, the thing I'm trying to push here is the most probable outcomes, and HP/Palm is at the centre of it.
Within ~10 months (Apr-Jun 11), HP was able to transform the WebOS system, and make adaptations for its devices.
And HP has less experience than Nokia when it comes to creating an operating system, let alone an ecosystem.
However, HP's future with WebOS has come falling down simply because the market was late, HP didn't have enough contracts to pick it off the ground, there was many promising competitors, and public interest was low. The software was, scratch that, is really top-notch, it is the rest of the package which fails to deliver.
The example with HP is just to show that an effective software and promising hardware are not enough. You need the entire package; third-party support, availability, marketing, the works. Consumers are used to brands, which is why Apple is dominant. And Elop is actually right, consumers are also considering the ecosystem these days, not just the device.
Additionally, WP7 is more of a dumbbed-down-smartphone-os than iOS, or WebOS, or Android. And Nokia is the king of feature-phone market share, so the two really go hand-in-hand.
So the question must be asked, did Nokia have what it takes to create a new (MeeGo) operating system by Q2 2011?
-Yes, definitely.
Could it have created an (effective) ecosystem by Q2 2011?
-Definitely not.
The only way Nokia could have created an effective ecosystem, truly is if they beat Microsoft (or at least tied) to the market. And even then MeeGo may not have been enough. If they were the winners of Palm they would have enough effort to scrape up a new ecosystem. They would also have a noticable third-party support, a footing in the North America market and stand against Apple's litigation with ease.
You say they were ABLE to make alterations, but their own engineers pointed out that they weren't able to--and, in fact, Qualcomm (designer of the architecture they ended up using) was able to run Android far better on that same hardware. I'm not sure how you got that impression when HP engineers themselves didn't have that opinion. That bodes far better for Android than it does for WebOS, in terms of adaptability... and the myriad of hardware able to run Android already proved that well before. HP is hardly a stranger to writing or adapting operating systems, however. They still own HP-UX, Tru64, OpenVMS, NonStop, HP RTE (Run-Time Executive), HP MIE (Mobile Internet Experience), HP MPE (Multi-Programming Executive), and so on and so on in addition to supporting Linux, Microsoft's Windows, and have been supporting these products for many, many years before they bought WebOS and even continue to code for and support most of these operating systems in JUST the items that I listed. I think you forgot that you were talking about HEWLETT-PACKARD... not Palm. WebOS was hardly top-notch when it was riddled with glitches and exploits--some of them JUST from web-based HTML5 exploits. Again, the engineers who worked on it THEMSELVES admitted as much. It was STILL a work-in-progress that was shoved out the door very quickly and in need of much tender loving care from engineers and its own community. HP failed to understand that and made several fatal missteps along the way. I still think it's salvageable, but that window is closing VERY rapidly.
BUT--in no way can Nokia help themselves by simply acquiring it. Nokia already had a perfectly fine set of operating systems and through inaction and ineptitude allowed much of it to die off. WebOS would not have helped what they were already doing badly--even the Palm division executives weren't doing very well to push their own platform so you couldn't have even hoped that changing executives through such an acquisition would improve anything. The ecosystem in both was also a failure--ovistore isn't popular--very few people actually LIKED it even amongst the N900 owners themselves (everybody remember ANGRY MAN being pitched in lieu of the actual good, new content people really wanted?), nor was WebOS's app shop.
I sincerely think that what Nokia should have done was to put more effort into supporting what they ALREADY had, LISTEN to customers/engineers/developers, and ADVERTISE their products cleverly. They did NONE of that and to pretend that they can fix it all by just slapping Windows Phone 7 on there is to continue to neglect those obvious points. The ecosystem will continue to be irrelevant so long as said ecosystem is STILL run by Nokia in the way Nokia has been running it all along.
We know Microsoft has already burned bridges in the past with customers, salespeople and vendors. This is already a shaky start. This is like combining two disgusting flavors that taste even more repulsive together--it's like the most repulsive KIT-KAT bar you can imagine made from bodily wastes. So if we're to look at where they are now and the current direction--nothing with regard to a WebOS acquisition can save them now.
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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2011-09-06
, 09:33
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Posts: 2,448 |
Thanked: 9,523 times |
Joined on Aug 2010
@ Wigan, UK
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#57
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Originally Posted by danramos
This is like combining two disgusting flavors that taste even more repulsive together--it's like the most repulsive KIT-KAT bar you can imagine made from bodily wastes.
__________________
'Men of high position are allowed, by a special act of grace, to accomodate their reasoning to the answer they need. Logic is only required in those of lesser rank.' - J K Galbraith
My website
GitHub
'Men of high position are allowed, by a special act of grace, to accomodate their reasoning to the answer they need. Logic is only required in those of lesser rank.' - J K Galbraith
My website
GitHub
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2011-09-06
, 09:36
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Posts: 4,384 |
Thanked: 5,524 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#58
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Damn you, that was my favorite choc bar.
__________________
Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
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2011-09-06
, 10:23
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Posts: 1,789 |
Thanked: 1,699 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
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#59
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LMAO at recent comments.
While I agree with you (Dan) on several fronts, my idea hasn't changed.
The fact is Nokia either had:
-bad executives
-bad developers
-both.
The deal with Microsoft actually fixes those mistakes, and helps get an actual product out to customers.
How could Nokia have success with MeeGo?
It would have to fix those problems, both are difficult and completely separate tasks. It's like discovering termites in your foundation of the house.
Do you add more foundations?
Do you build a new foundation while demolishing the old?
Do you simply spray poison and pray it works?
Do you destroy the entire house and start again?
Nokia was in a very delicate situation midyear last year, and they chose the "spray poison" option and after realizing the termites didn't die, they chose to not spend any money fixing it but to scrap the house and build a new one.
My notion with acquiring Palm at April 2010, is in conjunction with adding more foundations. Because that option is the SMARTEST option because it allows you to do several other things like "spray poison" (let Intel continue baking the software) and also gradually remove the old foundations (getting rid of bad executives, developers, designers, code like Python). Nokia could've released WebOS devices with Qt support. Then later build up on that with a much more powerful base (kernel, features, no bugs) trully merging the Moblin into the WebOS and Qt. They'd call it MeeGo 2.0, non-different to Samsung's Bada 2.0 or Symbian Belle. And by that time, there would be an amountable Qt applications that would readily be available.
This is the big picture I am trying to paint, and no it is very probable had Nokia taken the correct (obvious) decisions.
edit: No, their decision did fix it. They scrapped the house and built/building a new one. There is no pissing involved. However, the new house may reek of the smell of Elopiss. Just being literal
Last edited by Kangal; 2011-09-06 at 10:56.
While I agree with you (Dan) on several fronts, my idea hasn't changed.
The fact is Nokia either had:
-bad executives
-bad developers
-both.
The deal with Microsoft actually fixes those mistakes, and helps get an actual product out to customers.
How could Nokia have success with MeeGo?
It would have to fix those problems, both are difficult and completely separate tasks. It's like discovering termites in your foundation of the house.
Do you add more foundations?
Do you build a new foundation while demolishing the old?
Do you simply spray poison and pray it works?
Do you destroy the entire house and start again?
Nokia was in a very delicate situation midyear last year, and they chose the "spray poison" option and after realizing the termites didn't die, they chose to not spend any money fixing it but to scrap the house and build a new one.
My notion with acquiring Palm at April 2010, is in conjunction with adding more foundations. Because that option is the SMARTEST option because it allows you to do several other things like "spray poison" (let Intel continue baking the software) and also gradually remove the old foundations (getting rid of bad executives, developers, designers, code like Python). Nokia could've released WebOS devices with Qt support. Then later build up on that with a much more powerful base (kernel, features, no bugs) trully merging the Moblin into the WebOS and Qt. They'd call it MeeGo 2.0, non-different to Samsung's Bada 2.0 or Symbian Belle. And by that time, there would be an amountable Qt applications that would readily be available.
This is the big picture I am trying to paint, and no it is very probable had Nokia taken the correct (obvious) decisions.
edit: No, their decision did fix it. They scrapped the house and built/building a new one. There is no pissing involved. However, the new house may reek of the smell of Elopiss. Just being literal
Last edited by Kangal; 2011-09-06 at 10:56.
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2011-09-06
, 10:43
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#60
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Originally Posted by Kangal
Except now they switched from spraying ant poison to just pissing all over the house instead--it's clearly ineffective already, as Windows Phone 7 has already proven itself as a dud. They didn't FIX anything with this.
Nokia was in a very delicate situation midyear last year, and they chose the "spray poison" option and after realizing the termites didn't die, they chose to not spend any money fixing it but to scrap the house and build a new one.
This is the big picture I am trying to paint, and no it is very probable had Nokia taken the correct (obvious) decisions.
As for the probability, it's pointless to speculate because we're already past the middle of 2011... not anywhere near that comparatively hopeful era of 2010 before Elop boarded the Nokia craft to pilot the damn ship into the rocky shores with a Kin branded albatross Angry Birds doll around his neck.
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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