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| The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to wolke For This Useful Post: | ||
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2013-09-27
, 06:59
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#602
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a) why do many here still argue like the Neo900 was a board only? Please reread the post#1 and the oneliner above the poll you may or may not have voted in.
b) case, screen, battery etc pp: 150; CPU: 50; modem: 100; WLAN+BT: 30; RAM+NAND: 25; storage: 30; codec: 10; other stuff on BOM: 150; PCB: 30; soldering: 50; etc pppackaging
fixed costs: something like 15..40k = another 75..200/device @batch200 (all prices incl appropriate reserve to handle risk and defects)
did you do the math? I'm already hoping for some improvements/bargains we can find during development and production.
And no, I'm not going to discuss and defend those figures now and here. And yes, we are of course aware of alternatives, and I for example didn't count in the maincam (50.-) to the BOM but had it somewhat summarized under in case,screen,bat,etc
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-09-27 at 07:25.
b) case, screen, battery etc pp: 150; CPU: 50; modem: 100; WLAN+BT: 30; RAM+NAND: 25; storage: 30; codec: 10; other stuff on BOM: 150; PCB: 30; soldering: 50; etc pppackaging
fixed costs: something like 15..40k = another 75..200/device @batch200 (all prices incl appropriate reserve to handle risk and defects)
did you do the math? I'm already hoping for some improvements/bargains we can find during development and production.
And no, I'm not going to discuss and defend those figures now and here. And yes, we are of course aware of alternatives, and I for example didn't count in the maincam (50.-) to the BOM but had it somewhat summarized under in case,screen,bat,etc
__________________
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-09-27 at 07:25.
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2013-09-27
, 07:48
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Posts: 53 |
Thanked: 24 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Finland, Rauma
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#603
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Well,
I don't have any technical knowledge to contribute to this project.
I'm just software geek and Linux enthusiast. I was so happy with my N900, but now it's about dead (losing GSM link). When Neo900 egerges, I will consider buying. It would be great to be able to use N900 camera -module as mentioned earlier in this thread. So if there would be "DIY" -option (add your own camera from n900) and price would be fair, I'll be ordering.
I don't have any technical knowledge to contribute to this project.
I'm just software geek and Linux enthusiast. I was so happy with my N900, but now it's about dead (losing GSM link). When Neo900 egerges, I will consider buying. It would be great to be able to use N900 camera -module as mentioned earlier in this thread. So if there would be "DIY" -option (add your own camera from n900) and price would be fair, I'll be ordering.
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2013-09-27
, 08:06
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Posts: 53 |
Thanked: 24 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Finland, Rauma
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#604
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Originally Posted by wolke
There's already over 400 voters (potential buyers).
svalavuo, the point is that delivering a phone with ubuntu edge specs at $800 requires selling $32M worth of devices. similarly, you cant expect a device that will sell 200 units to compete price-per-spec with any multi-million-selling hardware manufacturer.
also, you are about the 95th person to recommend that they have a kickstarter.
I know this $32M limit and that they didn't reach it.
That wasn't my point. My point was that it's quite hard to justify 700 Eur pricetag for "outdated" phone. Ok, the price without casing would be cheaper, but how much? What would be price for just the board?
Don't get me wrong here! I love my N900 and I'm quite fond of maemo too. I was able to do about everything with that. Much more than with my N9. Now I have three phones to play with (N900, N9 and S4) and I'd still use my N900 if it would stay connected to network. That's why I'm following this Neo900 project. I could take my best phone to use again and give my S4 to my wife, so she could get rid of that Lumia 820. :-)
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2013-09-27
, 08:29
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Posts: 257 |
Thanked: 2,053 times |
Joined on Sep 2010
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#605
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Originally Posted by svalavuo
Freedom is not free. Until there'll be massive boom of users preferring free platforms over dumbphones like iOS or Android based ones, the price of low production batches is the price of freedom.
My point was that it's quite hard to justify 700 Eur pricetag for "outdated" phone.
__________________
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900
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2013-09-27
, 08:36
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Posts: 53 |
Thanked: 24 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Finland, Rauma
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#606
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Originally Posted by dos1
This is so true!
Freedom is not free. Until there'll be massive boom of users preferring free platforms over dumbphones like iOS or Android based ones, the price of low production batches is the price of freedom.
In my opinion, N900 is one of the best phones ever made!
HW keyboard made it a great and easy to use.
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2013-09-27
, 09:15
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Posts: 362 |
Thanked: 426 times |
Joined on Nov 2010
@ Italy, Lombardia
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#607
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Originally Posted by ketmar
Please read all before comment.
no. nobody forces you to buy Neo900. you will not be punished if you won't buy it. TCTF will not kill your kitten or burn your house. you will not be banned on forums.
and by the way: do you really think that boards will design themselves? design working board for Neo900 requires alot of efforts. why authors should do it "for free"? see, they will give us resulting schematics for free (i.e. result of their work) — isn't that enough?
but if you can do the same project and beat the price — go on!
The quoted phrase was just a provocation to respond with the same arrogant tone that someone here uses often .
I also know that very low volumes of course the price is high and you need to pay man's work too (though I expect to be paid a little) .
I never said to sell it to 250E , I answered (and to others) that I found unrealistic say (not made by Joerg ) that it takes 6 or 7 digits volume productions have significantly more affordable prices .
Given that other companies have made it to make cheap products with much lower production in the order of 30 to 50,000 pieces
And this is not to say that there are 50,000 potential buyers but only answer that you do not need to have production of 50,000,000 pieces to have certain prices as others declared.
Finally the price "acceptable" is not mine but was inferred from the survey .
As many as 75 % of voters said that it would accept a maximum price up to 500E for a complete phone .
Only 10-15 % endorsed the amount requested , then the community (at least through the survey ) has largely rejected the amount requested as "not acceptable " .
But perhaps Joerg is too arrogant to recognize it.
Then this does not mean that the project should fail, or that I hope that it fails.
Probably with only 10-15% are able to sell 1000 products or maybe even more.
But with a simple average sum on the survey can be seen as the price is pushed towards an average of 455E for a complete phone .
There is a volume of production (which of course can not be 500 pieces) to meet the wishes of the community ?
No ok, but please be less arrogant in your responses, thank you.
PS
If you ask me my right price then I would answer that for me it is not worth spending over 200E for a bare board to put in my N900.
But this does not mean that I think the HW artificially overpriced and that I demand that price, but only that I ( and I think many others to see the survey ) would not spend more than that.
If with incremental batch finally a day will reduce costs at that level (or someone buy my used N900 at 500E
), then also I will be a customer.If it will never be possible patience.
Last edited by Fabry; 2013-09-27 at 21:43.
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2013-09-27
, 09:31
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Posts: 362 |
Thanked: 426 times |
Joined on Nov 2010
@ Italy, Lombardia
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#608
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Originally Posted by wolke
But probably the community only would like to know (not pretend) what should be the volume of production required to have brought the prices at a level suitable for all (and it is not asking a N900PlusPlus with the same specifications of Ubuntu Edge).
svalavuo, the point is that delivering a phone with ubuntu edge specs at $800 requires selling $32M worth of devices. similarly, you cant expect a device that will sell 200 units to compete price-per-spec with any multi-million-selling hardware manufacturer.
If the community sees that those with 40,000 (32M$ / 800$) pieces carry a certain type of phone and then here hear from someone (again said not by Joerg) that not even with hundreds of thousands or even millions of pieces would be possible to do the same with Neo900.
Then allows the community raises some doubts about certain statements.
Last edited by Fabry; 2013-09-27 at 09:39.
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2013-09-27
, 10:16
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Posts: 6,447 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#609
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Originally Posted by svalavuo
Unfortunately, most of them are way below the threshold and hence do not count*). If you look at dos1's numbers, you will see that the unit price/number of units sold is not a linear dependency. It's logarithmic. You need 10x more buyers for each €100 drop. There are currently only 26 more votes for €600+ than for €700+, that is not enough to break the bank. The €600 bracket is only applicable if you get 1000+ votes for €600+, not 1000 votes altogether.
There's already over 400 voters (potential buyers).
*) Me included I'm afraid
, but only because the question was, "how much would you be willing to pay", not "how much do you think is a reasonable price is". How much I am willing to pay depends on my personal circumstances much more than on how much the item in question is worth.Ok, the price without casing would be cheaper, but how much? What would be price for just the board?
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2013-09-27
, 10:18
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Posts: 2,222 |
Thanked: 12,651 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ SOL 3
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#610
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Originally Posted by Fabry
Maybe you are so arrogant to think you know what to do with this obvious observation and the guys who are planning this project are too stupid to grok what conclusion should be taken from it.
Only 10-15 % endorsed the amount requested , then the community (at least through the survey ) has largely rejected the amount requested as "not acceptable " .
But perhaps Joerg is too arrogant to recognize it.
Please enlighten us!
PS: there been no particular amount that been requested. I just gave a guess about a sweetspot we might reach. But the concept of sweetspots and matching between demand and supply seems not natural to you. See pichlo's post one above, it explains the concept again, except the "reasonable price" footnote that is not to the point. We (GolDeliCo) don't need a poll about what anybody thinks is reasonable, we actually need to know how many users are willing to pay a probably "unreasonable" price
/j
__________________
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member
EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/
IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N
Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-09-27 at 10:32.
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again, you are saying the price is unreasonable for 'just a board upgrade'. this means that you have a lack of faith in the team, either because you {like some other people..} think they are trying to make money by artificially raising the price, or that they are inept and are either assessing the price incorrectly or otherwise doin it wrong.
this is what i would hope would be explained away by a prominent page that explains the pricing in clear and easy to understand terms.
~ teleshoes ~