There's your average user...

Dunno what to say, a tiny door has to be left open... and root should be left by default on the device for when app manager gets messed up. like fatalsaint described.

It's the only reasonable conclusion this thread has, in my opinion.

Let's just leave this be (CLOSED) and do something else, I didn't want to cause that many sparks, but somebody would have asked the question sooner or later.

Sad, but you guys live in virtual world.

You assume that user is stupid en masse to easily go over red pill and doesn't understand that they are doing. So, you erect a barrier a bit higher in attempt to stop them from themselves.

But the real question is does user need the jumping over barrier or not?
If he needs it he jumps, just look extraction from other thread (about MMS) -

> " so good for u Im a begginer here so even dont know how to do that hehe"

> Just like kuriiri said earlier.
> Go to terminal
> sudo gainroot (you need rootsh to get to the root)
> apt-get install python-evolution (will install python evolution)

Or you think user doesn't need sending/receiving MMS on N900?

You also rarely look into HowardForums, it is full of people which wants to hack their device. So, the higher barrier - the more often it would be jumped ... "because it is a sacred device feature which unlock fully the potential of device". Secret leaks... until it is locked in Apple/Nokia safe as a digital key.

The right solution is not in erecting barrier higher but in creating environment which minimizes the danger of passing through barrier and helps recovery. The HAMs red pill gives a chance of avoiding ordinary non-programmers work with root shell, the red pill removal forces "haaaackers" into root shell.

Welcome to hell!

Contingency planning should always be involved. The question "what CAN go wrong within normal parameters?" should always be asked... and answered.

It's funny you should use MMS as an example...

Because it provides a good example of the other way too.

Someone installed the beta MMS from Frals and had all kinds of problems.. and threw a tissy.

I understand frals has released a package to *devel* now... but the only people that should be dabbling in devel are people that know what they are doing too.

Should users be able to MMS? Yes of course, this is Nokia/Maemo's fault... should users be using Beta, Proof of Concept or Development software to achieve?? Not likely.. unless they don't mind recovery when (not if) crap goes wrong.

It is funny to pay $600 for phone which is not able to work with MMS in modern time. And if you get into account the Nokia policy of close mouth about future you turn to alpha products to encourage developer to fill a gap is pretty justified.

You should have known this before buying the product....

And *you* (the user) don't turn to alpha software.. you support the developer vocally and let the geeks work on it and test it. Once it makes it to *testing* then users can start to test, but only again with the understand that it just might break something.

After a good number of testers have tested in testing.. then everyone can use it in extras. Nobody should be using devel repo's that is afraid of the CLI.

And this is the problem. "Hack" to a devel involves code, scripts, binary editing and long nights reading source, documentation, and/or specs.
"Hack" to those people means "follow someone's instructions" or "install someone's app" and magically the device does what I want to do. Then ask for more instructions when everything goes wrong because the idea that someone did not implement every possible safeguard in a overnighter "hack" did not enter their minds and as such backuping before trying and being ready to reflash is not an option.
The risks are really being underrated here -- YES you can brick your phone, and by this I mean real bricking.

I don't complain, I work with shell... well, more 25 years

I try to explain you the business model behind open system and how to handle the danger of root shell in an inexperienced hands and how to combine both.

You can not change a world overnight.

Ok, here's the bear jumping in with both paws to something out of her depth.

When I got my n900 I saw it had the thing called terminal. It never occured to me to open it. In my book thats the same as when I hit 'run cmd' on my pc - it opens a box where scary things happens and you can break things.

After 6 weeks, I have rootsh installed - because someone talked me through it, for something I was testing for them. It has proved useful all of about 4 times. The point is that as a non-linux person I didn't know I didn't have, needed it or what it did until someone told me. Installing it by default wouldn't make a right lot of difference to that.

Clearly the user in Fatalsaint's use-case (app manager problem and no rootfs) didn't have it because s/he didn't know s/he might ever need it. So again not someone likely to have used it unwisely had it been installed by default.

On the other hand, the people who know what a useful tool this is seem to have installed it as the first thing they did when they got their n900 - so having it there by default wouldn't make a right lot of difference to them, either.

My feeling is by all means install rootfs by default. Those who know what to do with it will be saved the effort, those who don't will (hopefully) never notice and not be affected.

But - and here's the but: when I hear people complaining that doing complicated things is made more difficult (not impossible) I'm not a bit sorry. Having to open the keyboard means using both hands. And giving what you are doing your full attention. With the 'quick click' method how easy is it to install something - maybe the wrong thing because you were chatting on facebook/driving/watching Corrie/having sex at the same time?

The next step down that line would be to fit all human beings with a zipper so surgery can be quick and easy any time you want to whip out an appendix.

There has to be a happy medium between the Apple approach of locking you out of the insides altogether and the approach being asked for of making the insides so easy to get into you can do it with one hand.

I'm rather glad my surgeon has to use both hands before he delves into my abdomen, and I suspect my n900 feels the same way.