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2015-10-21
, 17:19
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Posts: 440 |
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Joined on Jul 2014
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#62
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Originally Posted by Setok
I could see the benefit in having a 'Solu Server' type device, i'm thinking along the lines of 5 Solu devices stacked up in a stylish box, which you plug into your local network at home and access it via a 'remote desktop' app on your tablet/phone/laptop/whatever.
As mentioned, a mere Solu app will not suffice. It's not just the limitations on AppStore/Play etc, we do actually go down into the kernel level to make this whole model work. Now we could possibly have a virtual desktop environment, but none of those have ever been successful and, I believe, for good reason: the experience is too 'geeky'. You end up having an OS with its oldschool windows which then contain another OS with a completely different model. There is too much mental load and the experience is bad.
Naturally you would continue to offer the standalone Solu device as some users might find this 'too geeky' as you say, but it seems silly to leave tablets out of the equation (not so much phones or laptops) since it looks like a good match for the user interface, and there's already a decent install base which you can leverage.
Not to mention that a large percentage of users these days have stopped the whole 'desk' part of 'desktop computing' and have transitioned to 'couch computing' on phones, laptops, and tablets, which is a use case that the solu completely ignores.
I just feel that without something along those lines, that the whole cloudy stuff is mostly academic, since the user may only have one solu device, and so from their perspective is there any difference between it being in the cloud vs having large local storage? Not really.
Last edited by r0kk3rz; 2015-10-21 at 17:25.
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2015-10-21
, 22:32
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Posts: 741 |
Thanked: 900 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ Auckland NZ
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#63
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I get where Solu is coming from. They look at how joe public have embraced Chrome OS and see a gap in the market for people who perhaps don't want to trust Google with all their information, similar to Jolla's pitch. The challenge is how do you prevent Chromebook manufacturers from ripping off your hardware idea and simply releasing a Chromebox that doubles as a magic trackpad? What about those nifty new Windows phones that turn into a desktop computer when plugged into a dock? The challenges are great but I can see how easily it could succeed if implemented correctly and offering enough applications. Finding enough people willing to pay €20 a month to remain plugged into the matrix will be the hardest sell though.
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2015-10-25
, 12:09
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Posts: 46 |
Thanked: 116 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
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#64
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Many questions here. Let me see if I can address some of them...
First, on opensourcing the OS, it is something we have considered. In all honesty, though, we simply have not yet had the time to do a proper analysis of what impact that would have, but we hope to do so. Our business model is such that this could actually be possible. Even opensourcing the hardware might be possible. Obviously changes we have made to the Linux kernel, and other opensource components, will be pushed out. Right now it's crucial to keep the whole team focused on building, but we're certainly not against doing that.
Solu is run as a service, yes, but as much as possible is cached onto the local device. You could even connect large drives to it to get even more data cached (even everything from the Solu cloud). We're very aware that people need to know they can 'export' their data, if needed, and we are providing for that need. We hope, though, that the business model sends a signal that we want to support our users, and our developers, month after month.
On the question about having phone functionality, there is definitely an argument to be made for that. Again, we needed to keep ourselves focused on delivering the best possible product with rapid execution and a relatively small, dedicated team. If we had taken the temptation (which was real) to add phone functionality, we feel we would have taken even more of a bite than what we are already doing (which is huge as it is!). Certifications, more complex antenna and electronics design, more space limitations, phone software... Besides, most people don't use their phones by their ears for most of the time. What is the device that represents true mobile computing? How do we use that?
The question about the tablet form factor is interesting. The OS and UI has very intentionally been designed to scale to many different sizes and forms. If you pop by our office you might have a chance to see it running on a tablet :-). We chose this form because of its mobility and the ability to use it neatly as a trackpad. Plus we wanted to avoid the 'yet another tablet' syndrome but bring out something really iconic and different.
On a related theme, I don't actually see desktop computing disappearing anywhere. Sure, people use tablets on the sofa, but for work, a keyboard, and an 'indirect manipulation device' (=a mouse or trackpad) is highly desirable for purely ergonomic reasons. I was once at a presentation by a 'visionary' talking about how pure mobile was the future and computers were going to die. Every single person in that room was sitting behind a laptop. There's a reason for that.
Finally, on the 'server stack' —*I love that idea! In fact, in the very earliest days of Solu, before we even had a team, I drew a 3D sketch of exactly that: several Solus stacked together to form a 'cluster machine'. One of the most fascinating ideas in the history of computing was that of the transputer. I'd still like to go that way.
First, on opensourcing the OS, it is something we have considered. In all honesty, though, we simply have not yet had the time to do a proper analysis of what impact that would have, but we hope to do so. Our business model is such that this could actually be possible. Even opensourcing the hardware might be possible. Obviously changes we have made to the Linux kernel, and other opensource components, will be pushed out. Right now it's crucial to keep the whole team focused on building, but we're certainly not against doing that.
Solu is run as a service, yes, but as much as possible is cached onto the local device. You could even connect large drives to it to get even more data cached (even everything from the Solu cloud). We're very aware that people need to know they can 'export' their data, if needed, and we are providing for that need. We hope, though, that the business model sends a signal that we want to support our users, and our developers, month after month.
On the question about having phone functionality, there is definitely an argument to be made for that. Again, we needed to keep ourselves focused on delivering the best possible product with rapid execution and a relatively small, dedicated team. If we had taken the temptation (which was real) to add phone functionality, we feel we would have taken even more of a bite than what we are already doing (which is huge as it is!). Certifications, more complex antenna and electronics design, more space limitations, phone software... Besides, most people don't use their phones by their ears for most of the time. What is the device that represents true mobile computing? How do we use that?
The question about the tablet form factor is interesting. The OS and UI has very intentionally been designed to scale to many different sizes and forms. If you pop by our office you might have a chance to see it running on a tablet :-). We chose this form because of its mobility and the ability to use it neatly as a trackpad. Plus we wanted to avoid the 'yet another tablet' syndrome but bring out something really iconic and different.
On a related theme, I don't actually see desktop computing disappearing anywhere. Sure, people use tablets on the sofa, but for work, a keyboard, and an 'indirect manipulation device' (=a mouse or trackpad) is highly desirable for purely ergonomic reasons. I was once at a presentation by a 'visionary' talking about how pure mobile was the future and computers were going to die. Every single person in that room was sitting behind a laptop. There's a reason for that.
Finally, on the 'server stack' —*I love that idea! In fact, in the very earliest days of Solu, before we even had a team, I drew a 3D sketch of exactly that: several Solus stacked together to form a 'cluster machine'. One of the most fascinating ideas in the history of computing was that of the transputer. I'd still like to go that way.
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2015-10-25
, 12:10
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Posts: 46 |
Thanked: 116 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
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#65
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Originally Posted by maluka
Additionally ChromeOS actually has quite a bad UX, being essentially nothing more than a web browser with tabs. It also works poorly offline.
I get where Solu is coming from. They look at how joe public have embraced Chrome OS and see a gap in the market for people who perhaps don't want to trust Google with all their information, similar to Jolla's pitch. The challenge is how do you prevent Chromebook manufacturers from ripping off your hardware idea and simply releasing a Chromebox that doubles as a magic trackpad? What about those nifty new Windows phones that turn into a desktop computer when plugged into a dock? The challenges are great but I can see how easily it could succeed if implemented correctly and offering enough applications. Finding enough people willing to pay €20 a month to remain plugged into the matrix will be the hardest sell though.
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2015-10-25
, 15:13
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Posts: 440 |
Thanked: 2,256 times |
Joined on Jul 2014
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#66
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Originally Posted by Setok
And I like the idea of the trackpad computer, but I guess my main point was not so much about the device but the environment in which it is used. Most of my non-pc-gamer friends don't own a monitor to plug a solu into, they use a laptop, on their couch. And so Solu is asking them, not only to change their OS but also their entire habits around computing, which is a big ask.
The question about the tablet form factor is interesting. The OS and UI has very intentionally been designed to scale to many different sizes and forms. If you pop by our office you might have a chance to see it running on a tablet :-). We chose this form because of its mobility and the ability to use it neatly as a trackpad. Plus we wanted to avoid the 'yet another tablet' syndrome but bring out something really iconic and different.
Originally Posted by Setok
I'm a programmer by trade, and I absolutely agree that there will always be a place for the mouse+keyboard+big screen combo. I simply cannot imagine a future where hunching over a laptop or tablet would be a better way of working than my current setup.
On a related theme, I don't actually see desktop computing disappearing anywhere. Sure, people use tablets on the sofa, but for work, a keyboard, and an 'indirect manipulation device' (=a mouse or trackpad) is highly desirable for purely ergonomic reasons. I was once at a presentation by a 'visionary' talking about how pure mobile was the future and computers were going to die. Every single person in that room was sitting behind a laptop. There's a reason for that.
But i'm not sure I would push the 'work' side of the Solu too much, I can see people getting it for more the 'social' aspect of it.
Consider this; people now watch video on demand services such as netflix as a primary means of entertainment, which is great because its available all the time, but it lacks the synchronicity of scheduled TV in that you aren't watching something at the same time as your friends. With Solu, the details of what you're watching can be shared on the cloud, and so you can organise a weekly viewing of Game of Thrones with your friends and watch it simultaneously together, perhaps with integrated instant messaging so you can comment on whats happening in the show, safe in the knowledge that your friends are up to the same point. Maybe you're watching a movie, and you can 'share' what you're watching and some of your friends can jump in and watch together in real time.
I think its that level of social integration into the OS that is the real benefit for non-technical users.
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2015-10-26
, 11:25
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Posts: 46 |
Thanked: 116 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
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#67
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Originally Posted by r0kk3rz
I totally agree, and understand that point. We discussed the various types of form factors a lot internally, and there are plusses and minuses to them all. Now if you think longer term, consider that a laptop form factor is just that: a screen and keyboard. In a Solu world they could be completely dummy, with all the logic in the Solu device itself, which can still act as a smart trackpad.
And I like the idea of the trackpad computer, but I guess my main point was not so much about the device but the environment in which it is used. Most of my non-pc-gamer friends don't own a monitor to plug a solu into, they use a laptop, on their couch. And so Solu is asking them, not only to change their OS but also their entire habits around computing, which is a big ask.
Originally Posted by r0kk3rz
Love this idea! Posted it to the Solu team. It's a great example of how the social and collaborative elements go beyond mere work. This we want to do.
Consider this; people now watch video on demand services such as netflix as a primary means of entertainment, which is great because its available all the time, but it lacks the synchronicity of scheduled TV in that you aren't watching something at the same time as your friends. With Solu, the details of what you're watching can be shared on the cloud, and so you can organise a weekly viewing of Game of Thrones with your friends and watch it simultaneously together, perhaps with integrated instant messaging so you can comment on whats happening in the show, safe in the knowledge that your friends are up to the same point. Maybe you're watching a movie, and you can 'share' what you're watching and some of your friends can jump in and watch together in real time.
I think its that level of social integration into the OS that is the real benefit for non-technical users.
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2015-10-26
, 19:10
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Posts: 440 |
Thanked: 2,256 times |
Joined on Jul 2014
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#68
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The more I think about it, the more I realise there is a lot of cool ideas and flow on effects from what Solu are trying to do. But I almost wonder whether they're trying to do too much in one step.
- It's Spotify/Netflix/Dropbox for Apps
- It's a social/collaborative computing platform
- It's a portable trackpad computer
Is that too much for Joe Public to take in all in one go? All of these ideas have merit, but tying them all together makes it harder to convince people to join in, and it also means the failure of one idea takes down the others.
Perhaps a Microsoft style approach is needed here, suck people in with useful services, with an end-game of getting them on your devices/platform.
- It's Spotify/Netflix/Dropbox for Apps
- It's a social/collaborative computing platform
- It's a portable trackpad computer
Is that too much for Joe Public to take in all in one go? All of these ideas have merit, but tying them all together makes it harder to convince people to join in, and it also means the failure of one idea takes down the others.
Perhaps a Microsoft style approach is needed here, suck people in with useful services, with an end-game of getting them on your devices/platform.
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2015-10-27
, 08:20
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Posts: 46 |
Thanked: 116 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
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#69
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Originally Posted by r0kk3rz
Yes, it is a big chunk, but there is also a logic to it :-) The Spotify model for apps is directly related to collaboration. We wanted an environment where people can share freely and work together, without consideration for installing and managing applications, and payments is a big part of that. If users would, in this kind of environment, have to worry about in-app purchases and credit cards, it would hinder collaboration.
The more I think about it, the more I realise there is a lot of cool ideas and flow on effects from what Solu are trying to do. But I almost wonder whether they're trying to do too much in one step.
- It's Spotify/Netflix/Dropbox for Apps
- It's a social/collaborative computing platform
- It's a portable trackpad computer
Is that too much for Joe Public to take in all in one go? All of these ideas have merit, but tying them all together makes it harder to convince people to join in, and it also means the failure of one idea takes down the others.
Also a great consequence of this approach is that even opensource developers get paid.
The hardware we wanted to do because there have basically been no successful OS companies, ever, that weren't somehow bundled into hardware. Also, we just simply felt that mobile platforms, MiniPCs and similar are currently really limited in their scope, due to the lack of a proper cloud service to extend them.
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2015-10-27
, 09:49
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Posts: 440 |
Thanked: 2,256 times |
Joined on Jul 2014
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#70
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Originally Posted by Setok
It's not a question of the vision, as all these features do come together nicely with a lot of benefits for producers and consumers alike.
Yes, it is a big chunk, but there is also a logic to it :-) The Spotify model for apps is directly related to collaboration. We wanted an environment where people can share freely and work together, without consideration for installing and managing applications, and payments is a big part of that. If users would, in this kind of environment, have to worry about in-app purchases and credit cards, it would hinder collaboration.
It's a question of how you build it.
Starting as a Google Play competitor on Android, complete with Google Play Services type API for push notifications and other things, along with the subscription model and all that entails. Throw in the cloud storage for good measure, and you've got a convincing sales pitch to people.
The promise of consistent revenue gets the Developers on board; The promise of an add free, google free, try before you buy experience gets the users on board. Being a full Google Play alternative means android forks like Cyanogenmod can have a decent store with services API without being beholden to google, you can even get it on SailfishOS for all the google-phobes that we have.
Starting really small like that means you can build a service fairly organically, and then once you have a good userbase and decent revenue then it would be a lot easier to sell the idea of SoluOS to people who already have a subscription, already have the apps they love on SoluStore, and already enjoy a little taste of the social collaborative paradigm that is central to the idea.
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DebiaN900 - Native Debian on the N900.Deprecated in favour of Maemo Leste.Maemo Leste for N950 and N9 (currently broken).
Devuan for N950 and N9.
Mobile devices with mainline Linux support - Help needed with documentation.
"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." - Henry Spencer