Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms - Page 70 - maemo.org

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freemangordon	2013-07-19 , 05:49
Posts: 3,074 \| Thanked: 12,960 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ Sofia,Bulgaria	#691

Originally Posted by shmerl

The same what? Switch to Qt and RPM was in Meego. Mer continues it. Nothing new in this aspect. You are several years late to complain.

Oh, I am not complaining. I am talking about the behavior here - one has something that is working fine (or almost), but he throws it through the window because of some blurry reasoning. Instead of polishing what he already has. The point is - IMO it is wrong to make such a major change when you are on a hurry to release a device, as it will delay that release. No matter how good you are.

The reference to GTK and .deb was in that regard - Nokia did the same when all of us were expecting the step 5/5. And we all know what the result was/is.

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shmerl	2013-07-19 , 06:22
Posts: 1,298 \| Thanked: 2,277 times \| Joined on May 2011	#692

What was working fine, you mean Harmattan? Jolla has no way to reuse that, since it's closed (Nokia controlled). Jolla is using what's available - Mer + Nemo which are open and which use Qt and RPM all the way since Meego was using them. Therefore Jolla didn't throw anything out - on the contrary, they are building on the accumulated effort. There is really no novelty here. Mer exists for a while already, basically even before Meego was officially abandoned.

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	qwazix	2013-07-19 , 06:25
	Moderator \| Posts: 2,622 \| Thanked: 5,447 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#693

Originally Posted by MartinK

@wayland vs X11
There is still the issue of network transparency. While not really that important in out case (mobile/embedded application development), it still stands that it is something X11 has and Wayland is lacking so far.

Yes, this has been already discussed elsewhere quite heavily and yes, it should be possible to do it with Wayland using pixel scrapping.

But it still stands there is no such implementation in the current Wayland/Weston implementation.

Network transparency use-cases
From personal experience these work just fine on local (100 Mb Ethernet) network & are quite handy(as the application context stays on one machine, but the application can be used on many other machines):
graphical terminal emulators

Geany (wrote my bachelors thesis like this) and other editors

Thunderbird

Inkscape

modRana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44
According to this, X in it's current implementation is not network transparent, and wayland does remoting.

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	qwazix	2013-07-19 , 06:26
	Moderator \| Posts: 2,622 \| Thanked: 5,447 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#694

Originally Posted by freemangordon

Oh, I am not complaining. I am talking about the behavior here - one has something that is working fine (or almost), but he throws it through the window because of some blurry reasoning. Instead of polishing what he already has. The point is - IMO it is wrong to make such a major change when you are on a hurry to release a device, as it will delay that release. No matter how good you are.

The reference to GTK and .deb was in that regard - Nokia did the same when all of us were expecting the step 5/5. And we all know what the result was/is.

Regardless, I couldn't agree more.

edit: however the reasoning isn't blurry at all. Making 60fps is really hard with X (try scrolling in harmattan with vkb open for example) and debugging is way easier using wayland.

Last edited by qwazix; 2013-07-19 at 06:30.

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	Dave999	2013-07-19 , 06:53
	Posts: 7,075 \| Thanked: 9,073 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side	#695

Originally Posted by jalyst

Yeah but they've only gone this way because the Sailfish_Alliance (remember that, WTF ever happened to it!?) has taken so freaking long to get off the ground.
If they had stopped "fart-arsing" around MONTHS ago, both projects could be working on the same UI/UX now, or very soon...

Sailfish alliance working with future interruptions.
I think it's a product of lacking constant strategy and changing CEO too often. Either way, I'm sure even jolla understudy it pretty lame to have an alliance when you are on your own. That's why it's dead/quiet.

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freemangordon	2013-07-19 , 11:37
Posts: 3,074 \| Thanked: 12,960 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ Sofia,Bulgaria	#696

Originally Posted by shmerl

What was working fine, you mean Harmattan? Jolla has no way to reuse that, since it's closed (Nokia controlled). Jolla is using what's available - Mer + Nemo which are open and which use Qt and RPM all the way since Meego was using them. Therefore Jolla didn't throw anything out - on the contrary, they are building on the accumulated effort. There is really no novelty here. Mer exists for a while already, basically even before Meego was officially abandoned.

No, I meant what was shown a couple of months ago and what there is an alpha SDK for. Sailfish.

@qwazix: sure it is not, but if n900 with its old SGX530 and crappy drivers is capable to stream video from the main camera to GL texture with > 40-50 fps while the window is in the tasknav, just imagine what newer HW/drivers are capable of.

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shmerl	2013-07-19 , 13:35
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freemangordon: Qt 5 + Wayland vs Qt 4.8 + X11? I personally think it's great they went with Wayland. Sitting on X11 is getting annoying already, and if they can squeeze EGL drivers for Wayland from their SoC manufacturer - it's a really great achievement. I really hope they aren't going to use Wayland based on libhybris with bionic drivers in their own handset.

Last edited by shmerl; 2013-07-19 at 13:38.

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pali	2013-07-19 , 13:45
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Originally Posted by shmerl

I really hope they aren't going to use Wayland based on libhybris with bionic drivers in their own handset.

Why then they worked on libhybris and support to use android drivers??

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shmerl	2013-07-19 , 14:03
Posts: 1,298 \| Thanked: 2,277 times \| Joined on May 2011	#699

pali: To ease porting Sailfish to crippled hardware, where no glibc drivers are available and there is no way to influence manufacturer to release them and no open drivers either. Hopefully in their own case they can get something since they plan a significant volume of production.

Sailfish isn't supposed to be limited to Jolla's handset only.

Last edited by shmerl; 2013-07-19 at 14:08.

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marbleuser	2013-07-19 , 16:01
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Originally Posted by mikecomputing

Seriously it sounds more like people want X11 to tell others "hey I can run foobar X11 app on my phone" even if that X11 app will be a pointless toy cause it is unusable on a phone anyway.

so in other words if they bought out 2 versions of sailfish
1. no x11 compatibility 'consumer version'
2. x11 compatibility 'backward compatible version' capable of running x11(read old qt4/gtk2 apps), then you'd buy the consumer version?

yeah....... no.

edit: can someone confirm/deny that as a result of no x11 , that all those python maemo/meego apps that we all love can't be ported, and all new apps will need to to be re/written in c++?

don't you like any of those msemo/meego apps mikecompting?

Last edited by marbleuser; 2013-07-19 at 16:23.