Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms - Page 74 - maemo.org

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marbleuser	2013-07-19 , 18:35
Posts: 154 \| Thanked: 110 times \| Joined on Aug 2011	#731

like i said before

ok, so the current situation is:

maemo apps, meego apps, and 99.99% of existing linux apps can't run on or be ported to jolla. but it can run quite a lot of android apps, but not as much as a dedicated android device. and if you rewrite your app in c++ and specifically target the jollaphone only ,it can run it.

i'd cry if it wasn't so funny.

NO X11=ANDROID

shmerl	2013-07-19 , 18:44
Posts: 1,298 \| Thanked: 2,277 times \| Joined on May 2011	#732

I'm not sure where you got the idea that 99% of something is using Python with Qt. By far Qt promotes using C++ for logic with QML for the interface. As I said - either port your application, work on Python support for Qt 5, work on XWayland in Mer or quit complaining.

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mikecomputing	2013-07-19 , 18:54
Posts: 3,464 \| Thanked: 5,107 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden	#733

Originally Posted by marbleuser

ok, explain how to run a python qt5 app on jolla then.

I have already posted a solution to that question. But to repeat myself its upto the community to build/change pyside to work with qt5.

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	wicket	2013-07-20 , 01:02
	Posts: 634 \| Thanked: 3,266 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia	#734

Originally Posted by mikecomputing

But to repeat myself its upto the community to build/change pyside to work with qt5.

I'm finding it very difficult to agree with that stance, mainly because Jolla released their SDK and the purpose of that SDK was to enable developers to start developing in an environment that would closely match their final product. Jolla have now decided to change significant parts of the operating system that will affect many developers and throw away several months of their work. Those developers may not necessarily have the expertise to port PySide to Qt5. What are they supposed to do? The community is ready to help Jolla become a success but this is a kick in the teeth.

I'm actually pleased that Jolla are moving forward with Wayland and Qt5 however they have gone about it completely the wrong way. IMHO, if Jolla are going to ship their product with Wayland and Qt5, they need to ensure that both XWayland and PySide are also ready to ship otherwise they should proceed with their original plan that was to launch with X11 and Qt4 and then release an update for Wayland and Qt5 when they are ready.

Last edited by wicket; 2013-07-20 at 03:10.

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rcolistete	2013-07-20 , 01:11
Posts: 1,269 \| Thanked: 3,961 times \| Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil	#735

Originally Posted by marbleuser

well, mir has an x11 compatibility layer.. i haven't checked the details of whether or not this is on their phone. i just assumed it was.

Canonical has said that Ubuntu Touch 13.10 will have Mir, but not XMir, which will be available only for PC's. But there is an interview last month citing that Ubuntu Touch and Ubuntu for PC's will be unified in 2014 (14.04 version) suggesting that Ubuntu Touch would have XMir to make desktop convergence (i.e., a smartphone become a PC by connecting mouse, keyboard and display).

So it is not clear when/if/in each cases Ubuntu Touch will have XMir.

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Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.

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thedead1440	2013-07-20 , 04:19
Moderator \| Posts: 6,215 \| Thanked: 6,400 times \| Joined on Nov 2011	#736

Originally Posted by Morpog

Well, thats the difference between open and closed source/development. Most of times all of you cry Jolla should be even more open....

Another noted way of fanboys; to bunch everybody regardless of whether they providing constructive criticism or just criticism for the sake of it into the same group of people who "cry"...

Sadly, while people have been saying TMO is heated + has many fanboys or "old fanboys" in your words, the amount of level-headed people who are turning into pure Sailfish defenders is growing.

This thread's purpose was for ideas/questions as well as concerns/criticisms but more and more its turned into stupid wars by people who attack Sailfish blindly and others like you and mikecomputing who go on personal attacks blindly.

Like I have said previously, constructive criticism will help Jolla as people have always had a soft corner for them due to the incidents at Nokia. However, when the situation of an uncooperative management, i.e. Nokia, no longer exists, Jolla need to back-up their far-reaching decisions with proper communication.

I read on IRC that Stskeeps said he too gets things wrong. Nothing wrong with that but I would like to know from them what developments led them to believe their Qt4.8+X11 decision was right in the first place and only very recently actually a poor decision hence them going for Qt5+Wayland.

Would their abrupt move lead to any delays from the oft-said shipping date of end of this year? If such things were put out in a blog etc in a short wall of text it would have been much clearer from the time of their decision.

Yes the average Joe doesn't care about this decision but surely those first in line to buy the Jolla device and spread the word are not the average Joes but most likely people from places like here.

An unlike company does need to be more communicative to its main target group. Its funny how this is something that has been repeated a gazillion times yet tweets are still the main info source.

Originally Posted by Morpog

But why do we discuss this anymore? thp is doing pyotherside, isn't he? Fell free to contribute to that or not. It's up to you. You have the choice.

Exactly! Its upto an individual to decide instead of being bashed around by tools like mikecomputing imploding people to contribute!

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jalyst	2013-07-20 , 07:15
Moderator \| Posts: 5,320 \| Thanked: 4,464 times \| Joined on Oct 2009	#737

Originally Posted by marbleuser

not all of them will work though. it just a dalvik compatibility layer and not the real thing.

More on this later.....

Originally Posted by thedead1440

but the above quote seems apt for all those who keep saying the change is minor instead of holding Jolla to account for fumbling it up despite having similar fumbles when at Nokia...
Note I'm not trying to put anyone in a bad light but I believe a bit more accountability instead of unadulterated fanboyism would help Jolla i.e. constructive criticism always helps

TBH I'm not really seeing how that extract proves anything. It depends on WHEN "turning the boat around" is suicide according to their perceived definition.
He did allude to Jolla doing that "later"... Perhaps they made a calculated decision that turning it around (as they recently have) was/is the right time.

Originally Posted by marbleuser

ok, so the current situation is:
maemo & meego apps, can't run on or be ported to jolla.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90761

Originally Posted by Morpog

jalyst will hate us for derailing his thread so massively

Siiiiigh.....

Originally Posted by marbleuser

conerns and criticisms are not on topic?

We've made very clear what the formula of this thread is meant to be, even since you've been active here.

Originally Posted by shmerl

Python bindings for Qt is community supported now, so it's being developed slower than "official" parts of Qt.

Originally Posted by wicket

Those developers may not necessarily have the expertise to port PySide to Qt5. What are they supposed to do? The community is ready to help Jolla become a success but this is a kick in the teeth. I'm actually pleased that Jolla are moving forward with Wayland and Qt5 however they have gone about it completely the wrong way. IMHO, if Jolla are going to ship their product with Wayland and Qt5, they need to ensure that both XWayland and PySide are also ready to ship otherwise they should proceed with their original plan that was to launch with X11 and Qt4 and then release an update for Wayland and Qt5 when they are ready.

Python bindings can't even be considered as "relying on the community", given that Jolla has at least 1 employee working on it. So it's not a situation where people can whine that "Jolla's just throwing it out to the community once again". I'd also like to see a stronger commitment towards XWayland, so far they're being quite non-committal on that. I don't think they have to put a significant chunk of resources into either area, but if they put a "light touch" into both, just to steer the community in the right (coordinated) direction & help it gain momentum, then that'd be a good gesture/start.

Last edited by jalyst; 2013-07-20 at 09:47. Reason: added link that I forgot

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mikecomputing	2013-07-20 , 08:42
Posts: 3,464 \| Thanked: 5,107 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden	#738

Originally Posted by jalyst

Python bindings can't even be considered as "relying on the community", given that Jolla has at least 1 employee working on it. So it's not a situation where people can whine that "Jolla's just throwing it out to the community once again". I'd also like to see a stronger commitment towards XWayland, so far they're being quite non-committal on that. I don't think they have to put a significant chunk of resources into either area, but if they put a "light touch" into both, just to steer the community in the right (coordinated) direction & help it gain momentum, then that'd be a good gesture/start.

XWayland has been said it will not be supported in the core and its upto the community/thirdparty to add it. Thats enought communication for me.

They had pointed the community to nemo and mer several times. I don't see what more directions people needs?

People are free to ask questions on IRC in #mer and #nemo and #sailfish channels and Mer mailinglist.

BUT It sounds more like those who are most angry has not even written a line of code and/or is misunderstanding what wayland is about?

Whatever we write here we repeating ourself until dead. People does not bother to read what already has been posted.

his has now been discussed in > five days. Its time to move on. Its Wayland and Qt5. and there is possibility to make pyside work in Qt5. And in that case contact the maintainers of Pyside

ask the maintainer if there is any direction of Qt5 support.

and in case of XWayland check the nemo community and the mer mailinglist.

I am sure most developers prefer this direction. And it has nothing todo if people are jolla fanboys or not.

Now time for me to go back todays plans: Learning django

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Last edited by mikecomputing; 2013-07-20 at 08:53.

	Sohil876	2013-07-20 , 09:23
	Posts: 130 \| Thanked: 132 times \| Joined on Jan 2013 @ India	#739

Originally Posted by mikecomputing

XWayland has been said it will not be supported in the core and its upto the community/thirdparty to add it. Thats enought communication for me.

They had pointed the community to nemo and mer several times. I don't see what more directions people needs?

People are free to ask questions on IRC in #mer and #nemo and #sailfish channels and Mer mailinglist.

BUT It sounds more like those who are most angry has not even written a line of code and/or is misunderstanding what wayland is about?

Whatever we write here we repeating ourself until dead. People does not bother to read what already has been posted.

his has now been discussed in > five days. Its time to move on. Its Wayland and Qt5. and there is possibility to make pyside work in Qt5. And in that case contact the maintainers of Pyside

ask the maintainer if there is any direction of Qt5 support.

and in case of XWayland check the nemo community and the mer mailinglist.

I am sure most developers prefer this direction. And it has nothing todo if people are jolla fanboys or not.

Now time for me to go back todays plans: Learning django

I've gotta ask, why do you think developers who want to port their apps to a new ecosystem should do all that? shouldnt that be jolla's job to take care of it? . Dont you think jolla is being too stubborn here?

Last edited by Sohil876; 2013-07-20 at 09:26.

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MartinK	2013-07-20 , 09:31
Posts: 1,548 \| Thanked: 7,510 times \| Joined on Apr 2010 @ Czech Republic	#740

Well, the issue of Python bindings for Qt5 might be close to a solution, thanks to THPs work on alternative bindings called PyOtherSide, see his recent blog post about this & source code (not yet updated to reflect the blogpost).

Also THP recently started working in Jolla, which might influence things in the right direction in regards to Python. Still some semi-official clarification from Jolla about Python (& Python version - 2 or 3 ?) would be nice.

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