So now can we start a new song thread ? Just like the previous Haiku thread - where we can express opinions and which side we are on thru song lyrics ... that would be better than flat out hurtful and dismissive comments

How about if I leave my billions in my General Motors stock and just show up at their front door, mute, and hand them ... an iPod touch?

Contrary to your argument, the market for an uncoverged tablet has been proved, and the Touch is the proof. Apparently Apple has succeeded despite being 7 years behind the times.

Apple makes a single phone and a single tablet (not counting memory variation). Nokia makes a zillion phones. So Apple at least has concluded that the non-phone mobile market is large enough that it is worth more investment than multiplying their phone offerings.

Here's the marketing experiment I'd like to see:

Per one of the Nokia people on this thread, the screen can't be as large as the device's face because of all the antennas. So if you drop GSM, GPS, and anything else other than bluetooth and wifi, you could have a smaller device with the current N810 screen. I'd also drop the camera (people can have it in their phones).

Then you would have a device similar to, but a little larger than, the touch. Maybe with, maybe without a keyboard. (I vote for stylus, no keyboard, which also helps in the direct comparison below. And for this direct comparison, I remove the stereo speakers in favor of one like the Touch but I keep the d-Pad.) I would guess you could build a unit about 115mm x 72mm x 12mm, which makes for a slightly larger face than the rumored N900 (59.7mmx111mmx18.2mm) but considerably less depth and overall less bulk.

Then you can do a marketing study:

Would you buy

(A) this Apple Touch with a 3.5" 480x320 capacitive screen, Apple OS, multitouch, an accelerometer, and this very small form factor,

or would you buy

(B) this "Nokia Touch" with a 4.12" 800x480 resistive screen, removable memory, removable battery, an open maemo OS, the ability to sketch and to mark up documents, and bluetooth in the event you want to connect to a GPS or keyboard or datastream, in this slightly larger but clearly pocketable form factor?

Apart from the consumer's justifiable (although hated on this forum) love for the intuitive Apple interface and Apple's robust ecosystem, I think a lot of people would opt for the slightly larger, more flexible device.

Maybe I'm wrong on the precise specs for my "Nokia Touch" -- they aren't quite my ideal but I think they hit a large market and help on pocketability and cost -- but the Touch has proved that there is a big market for non-converged devices. Maybe a majority of testers would say, I'd buy it but only if it had a keyboard even if that increased the bulk and cost; or a majority would say the speakers are worth it to them; but, in any event, the market for a non-converged tablet is there.

Constantly comparing the Tablet only to a smartphone, and telling us to give up on Tablets since there is a market only for unified devices, is a mistake, in light of the success of the touch. It's just a matter of figuring out the particulars of what to produce to compete with the iPod touch ... and producing it.

[qgil! Peter@MaemoMarketing!! ragnar!!! Don't you want to click the Thanks! button on this post?? You can do it! C'mon! ]

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right

Hello, my first post here!

There had been rumors about a Maemo phone already before this leak and the oFono project seemed to fit the picture perfectly. Then I came to this forum to see what people thought about it.

And boy, was I surprised to see everyone crying foul about the two exact things that had _kept me from buying_ a tablet before: device size(screen size) and phone functionality! Heck, someone people even stated that anyone who ever wanted phone functionality in these devices doesn't belong here and should leave this forum immediately. Talk about feeling welcome.

The two deal breakers for me were that none of the tablets were small enough and that they didn't have cellular data or voice. I want ONE pocketable device with big enough screen that has everything I need whenever I leave my desktop computer. It doesn't have to be the best device for everything. DSLR takes better pictures, dedicated ebook readers are more comfortable and so on. But, if it does everything well enough then I'm sold.

Some of you might ask me why I haven't bought an iPhone or an Android device?

I'm not liking the iPhone walled garden approach. The app store is probably nice, but I certainly don't want Apple to decide what I can and cannot run on my own device. And don't get me started about AT&T:s influence. Most european carriers let customers tether their laptops freely without any additional charges, after all, they have paid for the data already! Who cares what's using it? And forcing all these artificial restrictions on software. My carrier lets me use skype over 3g if i want, but somebody over at AT&T decided it's not allowed so no go for me either.

I don't know so much about Android but it seems that it's not as open as I would have liked. And the G1 is butt ugly.

My brain has been overheating when I've been trying to connect the dots between all that Nokia's been doing lately. Rumors about a Maemo phone, oFono, open sourcing Symbian, Trolltech acquisition and so on. And now the news about a whole Maemo devices division.

I think we are living some interesting times.. first the Qt stuff. I don't know if any of you have been reading the Symbian Foundation blog, but it seems Symbian might getting a serious UI overhaul in version ^4. The all Qt "Orbit" UI widget library and "Direct UI" are proposed to replace the old Avkon UI I see in my E71 today. The new libraries are said to be optimised for touch based interaction.

And when you look at Qt Software(ex trolltech) roadmap http://www.qtsoftware.com/developer/qt-roadmap it screams mobile UI. All the Kinetic stuff, multitouch, gestures, new APIs for mobile development etc.

In the light of this http://events.nokia.com/developersum...n_Rytkonen.pdf I wouldn't be surprised at all even if that Orbit widget set would find its way to Maemo. You could use the same software in both Symbian and Maemo devices (and WinMo probably?). This could bring in a lot of developers and speed up Maemo adoption to make it even better a platform.

And the phone functionality is another factor that's going to bring more people in. I'm sure there are a lot of people like me who don't want to carry around multiple devices but still want the flexibility Maemo can offer.

The platform is still young and needs more users and developers. And I hope Nokia really pushes hard to make it *gasp* mainstream. Because as it is now, it's a niche no matter how you look at it. It even further proves my point that people here are arguing about having to using d-pad in xterm.

I understand all of you may not like this. After all it's different from what you have come to like in these devices. But it's a move in the right direction for many other people. You shouldn't lose hope either. I think people were so angry at Peter@Maemo marketing that his words didn't really sink in. Well, here it is again:

"I'm done for today. Spent already plenty of time on discussing about Maemo 5. I spent especially too much time here considering that we haven't even said what which Maemo device will be. Hopefully I could clarify a little bit for the community what we have said publicly about Maemo 5 and the purpose of Maemo in the future."

"If we want to take Maemo and open source to more consumers (and therefore ensure the future of Maemo), then we need to find the sweet spot for the intended product concepts supported by Maemo. When you have seen the Maemo 5 lead device, experienced the UI in WVGA, seen the hardware-accelerated graphics on a processor that delivers 3 times more performance at 20% less battery consumption (according to TI), then a judgment is justified. Currently, we are all looking at some rumours on the internet."

I have high hopes for Maemo in the future. The full linux underneath the hood is what could make it a killer platform. Ultimately the device could even be my desktop computer at the same time. It runs linux, has usb and didn't they just release linux drivers for displaylink. Or it could just have decent video out. It can have external hard disks plugged in, it can have a mouse and keyboard plugged in. It can be my webcam at the same time. The screen could be a touchpad if I don't have a mouse nearby. It could have a normal Maemo UI when not connected to an external display and a different desktop computer mode where it would run a full blown Linux on the external display. And it's still a _phone_. I'm getting a bit carried away here, not all of this is realistic yet with these relatively slow processors and little ram. But I sure hope this is the convergence Nokia is talking about eventually.

jsa, welcome aboard! And even though I'm in the camp that wants a new, non-converged bigger-screened device, I agree with everything you said.

(The rumored N900 is closer to the sweet spot. But there's a relatively-sweet spot, too, which Nokia has more-or-less been in, though in a not consumer-friendly enough way, that many of us also want filled.)

SUICIDAL TENDENCIES
Lights Camera Revolution (1990)
You can't bring me down!


What the hell's going on around here?
First off-let's take it from the start
Straight out-can't change what's in my heart
No one-can tear my beliefs apart, you can't bring me
You aint-never seen no one like me
Prevail-regardless what the cost might be
Power-flows inside of me, you can't bring me
Never-fall as long as I try
Refuse-to be part of your lie
Even-if it means I die, you can't bring me

You can't bring me down!
Who the hell you calling crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson
...was eating Fruit Loops on your front porch

Time out-let's get something clear
I speak-more truth than you want to hear
Scapegoat-to cover up your fear, you can't bring me
You aint-never seen so much might
Fight for-what I know is right
What up-you got yourself a fight, you can't bring me
Stand up-we'll all sing along
Together-aint nothin' as strong
Won't quit-we aint in the wrong, you can't bring me

You can't bring me down!

Bring me down - you can't bring me down!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down, no!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down, you can't bring me
down!

Tell them what's up rock!
You can't bring me down!

Bring me down - you can't bring me down!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down, no!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down, you can't bring me
down!

So why you trying to bring me
So why you trying to bring
Well you can't bring me down

Just cause you don't understand what's going on
...don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it,...don't mean it aint no good

And let me tell you something

Before you go taking a walk in my world,
...you better take a look at the real world
Cause this aint no Mr. Rogers Neighborhood
Can you say "feel like sh1t?"
Yea maybe sometimes I do feel like sh1t
I aint happy about it, but I'd rather feel like sh1t
...than be full of sh1t!
And if I offended you, Oh I'm sorry
But, maybe you needed to be offended
But here's my apology and one more thing...F-ck you!
Cause you can't bring me down

Bring me down - you can't bring me down!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down, no!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down!
Bring me down - you can't bring me down, you can't bring me
down!

You can't bring me down!

Suicidal!!!

I was explaining a user case where automatic screen rotation indeed doesn't work well, and should be put off.

This is someone who is laying on his side. Now imagine under him a pillow, and he holding in his hands a mobile device with accelerometer and auto rotation.



Another example would be when you're switching between that 45 angle turning point a lot. But again, you should be able to put the accelerometer off. I can put HDAPS off too...

In case by case it can allow more (ore place more efficient) text on screen because the amount of pixels from left to right increases a lot (increases with about 100%).

Really! Wow. If you'd combine this with the magic insight that the N97 is very much like the N900 maybe we should all simply buy a Nokia 5800 right now!

Fortunately, one of the nice areas Nokia N900 shines is that it has a OMAP3; much more powerful than either a Nokia 5800 or Nokia N97.

There are many more differences no matter what marketing guru naysayers would want to make you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N97
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_5800_XpressMusic

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUEpCt5EN4c

I wish that it was so. While open linux cellphones may be better than closed cellphones, the main and persistent problem is that the cellular industry is still closed/lacking competition (at least in North America).

@jsa:
Hiya! Just a reply rant. My apologies in advance.

The problem with the phone is that making it have a phone radio embedded (and likely locked, and very, very likely not compatible with the service I prefer or already have, and farther more likely to make the unit needlessly more expensive if I decide not to use said radio) ...which makes it a smartphone--not the type of tablet device that we all bought and loved with the freedoms we want in such a very portable computing device.

It would be better if, as was suggested earlier, there were another version of the unit sold without the radio at a much reduced price and without the incredible barriers to openness to do whatever you want with the device you rightfully purchased and now own, in the same way as a laptop or desktop PC.

Best still, provide an empty cavity for a radio module and let people buy a module for whatever carrier they wanted and make the interface to that proprietary hardware module remain open as a network device or a PPP connection (like a lot of EVDO USB devices often do).

True.. it's all rumors so far, but we're mulling over the idea of what has been leaked. The idea of branding this, what can only truly be called a SMART PHONE, an Internet Tablet successor to the 770/N800/N810 line just because it runs maemo seems ludicrous to me. If the radio is so important to you as a selling point, wouldn't it be just as valuable as a separate module? Compared to the previous Nokia Internet Tablets, this rumored unit strikes me as a crippled device on price and possibly architecture. Assuming the leaked information is all true, I'm strongly reconsidering the Pandora since it precisely aims at all the functionality I need and want, a much better form factor and a significantly better price with an aim to make things more open, not less.

I understand that this rumors satisfy your sweet spot, but we're not all in agreement. That's natural. But, given the near-laptop freedom the previous Internet Tablets gave us--this appears to me like a major step backwards for the community built around a Linux tablet and to the idea of using any software or carrier that we want to use on our small device.


And!...for those folks that kept bringing up the Volkswagen stuff...
MINE! I already licked it! ---> http://pleco.org/vw/RedBug.jpg