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danramos |
2009-08-04
, 18:33
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#71
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Originally Posted by ysss
Modularity (true modularity) is just one way to implement shared standards and promote competition. They're not one and the same, necessarily, but they're both very related.
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2009-08-04
, 18:46
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Posts: 1,213 |
Thanked: 356 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ California and Virginia
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#72
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The modularity argument is not for the average consumer. Think about it, it always adds bulk, is an extra cost, etc. The Archos tablets had "modular" software, and tons of hardware options, and everyone HATED them (the prices that is). With modularity, devs don't know what hardware the user is running. Also, not everything can be modular. Can the CPU, memory, etc be modular on a mobile device? Not yet at least.
For example, I have a Palm T3, and it has an SIDO slot. Sure, you could buy a camera attachment, a WiFi card, even a GPS module. I even worked on a DVB-T SIDO module for an internship. But, the device itself cost 300, the camera cost 50, the WiFi cost another 50, the GPS cost more. And you could only use one at a time. And thats not even the biggest problem.
Ok, so you have a 2 year old device. Lets say it has WiFi, Bluetooth, touchscreen, GPS, and a "extender slot." (sounds familiar?) You bought it for 300. Now, would you buy an accelerometer for 30, bigger battery for 20, WiMax for 40, 3G for 30, etc... or just a brand new, faster, slimmer, longer battery life, etc.. for 300? And remember, you still can use the old device for a number of tasks.
Modulatiry is great for PCs, where size is not a real concern. But look what apple has done with the laptops, they even removed the battery. So now it has a longer battery life, and everyone is happy. No one but nerds care for the removable battery, and I have never seen someone buy a battery for a 4 year old laptop.
For example, I have a Palm T3, and it has an SIDO slot. Sure, you could buy a camera attachment, a WiFi card, even a GPS module. I even worked on a DVB-T SIDO module for an internship. But, the device itself cost 300, the camera cost 50, the WiFi cost another 50, the GPS cost more. And you could only use one at a time. And thats not even the biggest problem.
Ok, so you have a 2 year old device. Lets say it has WiFi, Bluetooth, touchscreen, GPS, and a "extender slot." (sounds familiar?) You bought it for 300. Now, would you buy an accelerometer for 30, bigger battery for 20, WiMax for 40, 3G for 30, etc... or just a brand new, faster, slimmer, longer battery life, etc.. for 300? And remember, you still can use the old device for a number of tasks.
Modulatiry is great for PCs, where size is not a real concern. But look what apple has done with the laptops, they even removed the battery. So now it has a longer battery life, and everyone is happy. No one but nerds care for the removable battery, and I have never seen someone buy a battery for a 4 year old laptop.
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2009-08-04
, 19:03
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Posts: 4,384 |
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Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#73
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I wouldn't mind to hear a real life example of lower cost due thru modularization. It seems to me that modularization comes with A LOT of hidden costs, and they'd all have to be born by the customers in the end.
re:battery
Apple is making an interesting trade off.. whether it'll pan out as good as they plan remains to be seen. They've had some exploding ipods under their belt, afterall.
Pros\Cons?
+ More space efficient (can fit more of them in the device = longer batter life)
+ Lighter (?)
+ Higher rated lifecycle (?)
- Non user replaceable
- 'Sells' replacement battery and services associated with it below their normal profit margin to ease public concerns. (?)
re:battery
Apple is making an interesting trade off.. whether it'll pan out as good as they plan remains to be seen. They've had some exploding ipods under their belt, afterall.
Pros\Cons?
+ More space efficient (can fit more of them in the device = longer batter life)
+ Lighter (?)
+ Higher rated lifecycle (?)
- Non user replaceable
- 'Sells' replacement battery and services associated with it below their normal profit margin to ease public concerns. (?)
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2009-08-04
, 19:15
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#74
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Originally Posted by Thesandlord
Au contraire!
No one but nerds care for the removable battery, and I have never seen someone buy a battery for a 4 year old laptop.
Welcome to the corporate world, where you hang onto hardware until it absolutely breaks because that's the only time your boss will buy a new one. Where you buy aftermarket batteries with double capacity for long business flights. Where modularity makes a helluva lot of sense in a helluva lot of contexts.
And just because something hasn't worked in a particular setting doesn't mean it can't. It may well mean the implementation or time wasn't right.
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Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
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2009-08-04
, 19:24
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#75
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Originally Posted by ysss
OK.. where to start? How about the battery, since you bring it up? The argument that a non-replaceable battery is more cheaper in the long run doesn't really bear out. Particularly if you still like and use the device a couple of years later and you end up having to pay someone to replace your much more expensive proprietary battery.
I wouldn't mind to hear a real life example of lower cost due thru modularization. It seems to me that modularization comes with A LOT of hidden costs, and they'd all have to be born by the customers in the end.
re:battery
Apple is making an interesting trade off.. whether it'll pan out as good as they plan remains to be seen. They've had some exploding ipods under their belt, afterall.
Pros\Cons?
+ More space efficient (can fit more of them in the device = longer batter life)
+ Lighter (?)
+ Higher rated lifecycle (?)
- Non user replaceable
- 'Sells' replacement battery and services associated with it below their normal profit margin to ease public concerns. (?)
How about the aforementioned MCA vs PCI and VMS vs ISA? Equivalent MCA were always more expensive due to a patent fee for using that proprietary system. Mind you--it was still modular in the sense that they were cards--but it doesn't fit into the idea of a STANDARDIZED modular interface so that it provides better cost and longevity.
How about all those devices use SCSI interfaces going way back to the 80's? A standardized interface--not built-in or tied to the hardware--that permitted many old computers to even continue to this day to use modern hard drives? (I know a bunch of old Atari 8-bit XL/XE's using a Bob Box to work with several-gig hard drives using the standard SCSI-60 interface and in some cases using UltraWide SCSI with an adapter). Man, talk about longevity. It's an extreme case, but it shows that if you REALLY wanted to, you could still do it.. and do it very cheaply and with longevity using standards for modularity.
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2009-08-04
, 19:25
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#76
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Originally Posted by Texrat
Absolutely agreed. Here at work, the laptop I was given in 2004 has lasted me until only JUST this year (2009!) when the hard drive finally died and the company FINALLY admitted that it was worth replacing.
Au contraire!
Welcome to the corporate world, where you hang onto hardware until it absolutely breaks because that's the only time your boss will buy a new one. Where you buy aftermarket batteries with double capacity for long business flights. Where modularity makes a helluva lot of sense in a helluva lot of contexts.
And just because something hasn't worked in a particular setting doesn't mean it can't. It may well mean the implementation or time wasn't right.
Honestly.. I didn't even really think I needed it replaced but hey, no complaint here.
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2009-08-04
, 19:44
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Posts: 2,427 |
Thanked: 2,986 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#77
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Originally Posted by Texrat
As you alluded to earlier, there's a chasm between the best solution and planned obsolescence. For me, not that different from good vs. evil.
I wouldn't call that future proofing as much as "delaying the inevitable".
Your point about still-usable tech after the status quo has moved past it has merit, but still has to face the Law of Diminishing Returns.
USB is an excellent example of moving-on gracefully. Every iteration of the protocol sustains backwards compatibility. It's my personal favorite viral technology in both breadth and depth. It allows a software person like myself to do an assortment of powerful things with hardware as well. Even though some think it's the VHS to firewire's Beta, 99% of us don't care. It's that good.
The industry has not moved passed anything I mentioned; all are 99% available in current offerings and future announcements. I'm not saying that all data bus, protocol and driver layers are equal at future proofing, but that is still one of their functions. TCP/IP has been around longer than most of the people on this forum, and it's hangin' on just fine.
Radio transceivers are loosely coupled leaf nodes; we should be able to swap them out as needed.
As for the remark about humans being proof of future proofing, piffle. With punctuated equilibrium pretty much established as a major evolutionary driver, there's no guarantee we'll be the dominant intelligence in the future, near or far. All it'll take is a significant change to the environment and dolphins get their shot.
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N9: Go white or go home
Last edited by daperl; 2009-08-04 at 19:55.
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2009-08-04
, 20:21
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Posts: 4,384 |
Thanked: 5,524 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#78
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@danramos: Ok, where in my post did i mention that non-replaceable battery would be cheaper? Your assumption of 'your much more expensive proprietary battery' didn't make sense either, since:
a). All laptops come with proprietary battery anyway.
b). AFAIK you haven't got the data to back up the price claim. Please calculate price\watt\lifetime also when you're doing the calculation. Don't make a mistake of calling a $179 battery that is rated for 1000 cycles (@7 hours per cycle) to be more expensive than a $60 battery that is rated for 300 cycle (@5 hours per cycle)
Hmmm... actually it seems that you've shifted your whole argument to 'open' vs proprietary standards somehow. Moreover, we were talking about the added cost of implementing modularization, not about the basic and obvious merit of having something designed modularly..
@daperl: humm.. don't you think the book is very biased, considering it's written by a *ahem* human?
a). All laptops come with proprietary battery anyway.
b). AFAIK you haven't got the data to back up the price claim. Please calculate price\watt\lifetime also when you're doing the calculation. Don't make a mistake of calling a $179 battery that is rated for 1000 cycles (@7 hours per cycle) to be more expensive than a $60 battery that is rated for 300 cycle (@5 hours per cycle)
Hmmm... actually it seems that you've shifted your whole argument to 'open' vs proprietary standards somehow. Moreover, we were talking about the added cost of implementing modularization, not about the basic and obvious merit of having something designed modularly..
@daperl: humm.. don't you think the book is very biased, considering it's written by a *ahem* human?
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2009-08-04
, 20:30
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#79
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Originally Posted by daperl
It doesn't argue that I'm wrong at all, based on a key word of yours (look for the context in my post). I highlighted it for you.
This book argues that you're wrong. Humans are thee general solution for the environment we inherited. Pole to Pole. Dolphins are a successful, yet specific solution. Very interesting stuff, and I highly recommend this book.If you can find itIf you can actually get your hands on it.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2009-08-04
, 20:54
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#80
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I see my friend Ragnar online so I want to revisit his earlier question.
One thing I will say for Nokia, from my experience: the company EXCELS at problem containment for commercial customers. I would put Nokia up against ANY company in that regard, including Apple, and they would hold their own.
Our factory in the US had over 98% on time delivery and under 3% field failure rates due to issues under our control. That's damn good numbers folks.
Where Nokia broke down was in failing to take that success upstream as well as out to consumers. I'm not revealing secrets here because anyone dealing with end customer service has seen it. The definition of containment in that regard tends to mean "pretend the problem doesn't exist (okay, hyperbolic, but it's how end customers feel)".
Within a factory it was easy to shed light on this but only because we were self-contained. From a corporate ivory tower perspective it's hard to see that lines of communication are broken.
This issue is common to many large companies YET some manage to succeed in service anyway. A while back there was a popular thread here on the subject (that started with poor tablet service) and I mentioned Lexar media and Apevia as companies that managed to create a delightful repair experience (chew on that for a while, PR experts!).
Anyway, there's more to say, but I have to get back to my presentation...
Last edited by Texrat; 2009-08-04 at 21:13.
One thing I will say for Nokia, from my experience: the company EXCELS at problem containment for commercial customers. I would put Nokia up against ANY company in that regard, including Apple, and they would hold their own.
Our factory in the US had over 98% on time delivery and under 3% field failure rates due to issues under our control. That's damn good numbers folks.
Where Nokia broke down was in failing to take that success upstream as well as out to consumers. I'm not revealing secrets here because anyone dealing with end customer service has seen it. The definition of containment in that regard tends to mean "pretend the problem doesn't exist (okay, hyperbolic, but it's how end customers feel)".
Within a factory it was easy to shed light on this but only because we were self-contained. From a corporate ivory tower perspective it's hard to see that lines of communication are broken.
This issue is common to many large companies YET some manage to succeed in service anyway. A while back there was a popular thread here on the subject (that started with poor tablet service) and I mentioned Lexar media and Apevia as companies that managed to create a delightful repair experience (chew on that for a while, PR experts!).
Anyway, there's more to say, but I have to get back to my presentation...
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Last edited by Texrat; 2009-08-04 at 21:13.